Äèñêóññèîííûé Êëóá Ðóññêîãî Ìåäèöèíñêîãî Ñåðâåðà
MedNavigator.ru - Ïîèñê è ïîäáîð ëå÷åíèÿ â Ðîññèè è çà ðóáåæîì
  #1  
Ñòàðûé 06.02.2004, 13:01
_Alexander_
Ãîñòü
 
Ñîîáùåíèé: n/a
Æàíèí è ïðîòðîìáèí

Äåâóøêà 22 ãîäà ïî ñîâåòó âðà÷à íà÷àëà ïèòü Æàíèí.  ïåðâûå äâà ìåñÿöà ïðèåìà óðîâåíü ïðîòðîìáèíà ñîñòàâëÿë 85, â òðåòüåì óâåëè÷èëñÿ äî 100, â îñòàëüíîì íèêàêèõ íåïðèÿòíûõ ïîáî÷íûõ ýôôåêòîâ íå íàáëþäàëîñü, îáùèé àíàëèç êðîâè áåç èçìåíåíèé. Âðà÷ ñêàçàëà ïðåêðàòèòü ïðèåì ïðåïàðàòà è íàçíà÷èëà àñïèðèí. ×åðåç ìåñÿö ïîñëå îòìåíû ïðîòðîìáèí îñòàëñÿ 100, à åùå ÷åðåç ìåñÿö ñòàë 93. Âðà÷ ïî ïðåæíåìó ñîâåòóåò Æàíèí íå ïèòü.
ßâëÿþòñÿ ëè ýòè ðåçóëüòàòû ïîêàçàíèåì ê îòìåíå ïðåïàðàòà è êàêèå äåéñòâèÿ âû ïîñîâåòóåòå â äàëüíåéøåì? Ñåé÷àñ ïðåäîõðàíÿåìñÿ Ôàðìàòåêñîì îäíîâðåìåííî ñ ïðåçåðâàòèâàìè, íî ýòîò ñïîñîá, îòêðîâåííî ãîâîðÿ, íå î÷åíü óñòðàèâàåò.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #2  
Ñòàðûé 07.02.2004, 01:37
Tatiana Che
Ãîñòü
 
Ñîîáùåíèé: n/a
Àëåêñàíäð,
â ïðèíöèïå, ðåôåðåíòíûå çíà÷åíèÿ (òå ëàáîðàòîðíûå íîðìû) äëÿ ðàçíûõ ó÷ðåæäåíèé ìîãóò ðàçëè÷àòüñÿ, ïîýòîìó, çàäàâàÿ âîïðîñ, íåîáõîäèìî ñîîáùàòü ýòè ñàìûå íîðìû.

Íå ïðîòèâîðå÷èò çäðàâîìó ñìûñëó óâåëè÷åíèå ïðîòðîìáèíà ïðè ïðèåìå ëþáûõ ÎÊ, â òîì ÷èñëå è æàíèíà. Êñòàòè, 100% äàæå íå âåðõíÿÿ ãðàíèöà íîðìû áîëüøèíñòâà ñóùåñòâóþùèõ íîðìàòèâîâ. Äðóãèìè ñëîâàìè, - óâåëè÷åíèå ïðîòðîìáèíà - ñàìî ñîáîé ðàçóìåþùååñÿ ñëåäñòâèå ïðèåìà ÎÊ, è åñëè 100% íå âûøå âåðõíåé ãðàíèöû íîðìû, òî íèêàêèõ îñíîâàíèé äëÿ îòìåíû æàíèíà íåò.

Êîììåíòàðèè ê ñîîáùåíèþ:
Melnichenko îäîáðèë(à):
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #3  
Ñòàðûé 17.06.2004, 15:00
gnusik gnusik âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë æåíñêèé
Ñåðôåð
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 17.06.2004
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3
gnusik *
Æàíèí

Äîáðûé äåíü!!!

Ïîìîãèòå, ïîæàëóéñòà:

Âðà÷ ïîñîâåòîâàë ïðèíèìàòü "Æàíèí".  ïåðâûé äåíü ìåñÿ÷íûõ âûïèëà 1 ïåðâóþ òàáëåòêà (íà÷àëî ñîâïàëî ñ ïîíåäåëüíèêîì, ïîýòîìó òàáëåòêó çà ïîíåäåëüíèê è âûïèëà). Óæå íà ñëåäóþùèé äåíü âûäåëåíèÿ ïðàêòè÷åñêè ïðåêðàòèëèñü, è ñòàëè ñêóäíî êîðè÷íåâûìè. Ñåãîäíÿ ÷åòâåðã, âûäåëåíèé âñå ìåíüøå è ìåíüøå. Ãðóäü è æèâîò óâåëè÷èëèñü, ÷óâñòâóþ ñåáÿ, ÷åñòíî íå î÷åíü õîðîøî. ×òî ýòî ìîæåò îçíà÷àòü? À ãäå ñàìè ìåñÿ÷íûå? Ñïàñèáî
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #4  
Ñòàðûé 17.06.2004, 19:47
Àâàòàð äëÿ yakov
yakov yakov âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Âðà÷-ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.07.2001
Ãîðîä: Áîëüøîé ãîðîä
Ñîîáùåíèé: 2,819
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 4 ðàç(à) çà 3 ñîîáùåíèé
yakov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyakov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyakov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyakov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyakov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyakov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyakov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyakov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyakov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyakov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyakov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Ïðè ïðèåìå âñåõ ÎÊ ìåñÿ÷íûå îáû÷íî ñòàíîâÿòñÿ áîëåå ñêóäíûìè, ÷åì ðàíüøå. Èçìåíåíèå ñàìî÷óâñòâèÿ òîæå âîçìîæíî â ïåðâûå 1-3 öèêëà ïðèåìà, ïîòîì îðãàíèçì ïîñòåïåííî ïðèâûêàåò. Òàê ÷òî ïîâîäà äëÿ áåñïîêîéñòâà ó Âàñ íåò.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #5  
Ñòàðûé 18.06.2004, 17:07
gnusik gnusik âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë æåíñêèé
Ñåðôåð
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 17.06.2004
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3
gnusik *
Lightbulb æàíèí - ïðåêðàùåíèå ïðèåìà

Ñïàñèáî áîëüøîå çà îòâåò. Åñëè ÿ âñå-òàêè ïðåêðàùó ïðèåì íå äîïèâ 21 äåíü, à íàïðèìåð ïðîòèâ òîëüêî íåäåëþ, ÷òî ìåíÿ îæèäàåò? Ïðèäåò ëè ìåíñòðóàöèÿ íà 7 äåíü ïîñëå îêîí÷àíèÿ ïðèåìà?

Ñïàñèáî
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #6  
Ñòàðûé 18.06.2004, 23:04
Àâàòàð äëÿ Gilarov
Gilarov Gilarov âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Âðà÷-ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 26.07.2001
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 7,196
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 713 ðàç(à) çà 691 ñîîáùåíèé
Gilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Áðàòöû!!!!
Äà âåäü ýòî áðåä, îò ïîâûøåííîãî ïðîòðîìáèíà àñïèðèí ïèòü. Îí æå, àñïèðèí ýòîò, äåçàãðåãàíò, è, ñèðå÷ü, íà ïðîòðîìáèí íå äåéñòâóåò. Åñëè óæ ïèòü, òî âàðôàðèí, íî ýòî ñîâåðøåííî íå çà ÷åì. Êòî âîîáùå ñêàçàë, ÷òî íàäî íà ôîíå ïðèåìà æàíèíà ïðîòðîìáèí êîíòðîëèðîâàòü??? À ÌÍÎ íå íàäî? À À×ÒÂ?
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #7  
Ñòàðûé 19.06.2004, 16:40
Artemij Okhotin Artemij Okhotin âíå ôîðóìà
Çàñëóæåííûé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 03.04.2003
Ãîðîä: Òàðóñà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 769
Artemij Okhotin ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåArtemij Okhotin ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåArtemij Okhotin ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåArtemij Okhotin ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåArtemij Okhotin ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåArtemij Okhotin ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåArtemij Okhotin ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåArtemij Okhotin ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåArtemij Okhotin ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåArtemij Okhotin ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåArtemij Okhotin ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Öèòàòà:
Äà âåäü ýòî áðåä, îò ïîâûøåííîãî ïðîòðîìáèíà àñïèðèí ïèòü.
Òåì íå ìåíåå ýòî "îáùåïðèíÿòàÿ" òàêòèêà.  ïîëèêëèíèêàõ íåïðÿìûõ àíòèêîàãóëÿíòîâ áîÿòñÿ, à â òåðàïåâòè÷åñêèõ îòäåëåíèÿõ èõ ÷àñòî è íåò. ß ÍÈ ÐÀÇÓ íå âèäåë â "îáû÷íûõ" òåðàïåâòè÷åñêèõ îòäåëåíèÿõ áîëüíûõ, íàïðèìåð ñ ìåðö.àðèòìèåé èëè ïðîòåçàìè êëàïàíîâ, ïîëó÷àþùèõ âàðôàðèí. Íåò, âðó, îäèí ðàç âèäåë: ñâîé ôåíèëèí ïðè ïðîòåçå àîðò. êëàïàíà.
Çàòî íàçíà÷åíèå àñïèðèíà ïðè ïîâûøåííîì ïðîòðîìáèíå ñ ïîñëåäóþùèì åãî êîíòðîëåì âèäåë íåñêîëüêî ðàç (â ïîëèêëèíèêàõ). Ñàìî ïî ñåáå íàçíà÷åíèå àñïèðèíà åùå ìîæíî ïîíÿòü, íî êîíòðîëü ïðîòðîìáèíà ïîñëå ýòîãî êîíå÷íî óäèâëÿåò.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #8  
Ñòàðûé 21.06.2004, 16:27
Àâàòàð äëÿ Dr.Vad
Dr.Vad Dr.Vad âíå ôîðóìà
Ìîäåðàòîð ôîðóìà ïî ãåìàòîëîãèè
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 16.01.2003
Ãîðîä: Õüþñòîí, Òåõàñ
Ñîîáùåíèé: 80,206
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 33,155 ðàç(à) çà 31,506 ñîîáùåíèé
Dr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDr.Vad ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Óâàæàåìûå êîëëåãè!

Áóäåòå ñìåÿòüñÿ, íî àñïèðèí îêàçûâàåò-òàêè âëèÿíèå íà ôàêòîðû ñâåðòûâàíèÿ, òå ïîäàâëÿåò êîàãóëÿöèþ íåñêîëüêèìè ìåõàíèçìàìè (âñå çàâèñèò îò äîçû):

Aspirin suppresses plasma coagulation through several mechanisms. The first, initially described by Link and associates in 1943 and confirmed by others, is caused by an anti-vitamin K effect of aspirin. It requires very high doses of aspirin and does not contribute to the antithrombotic effect of aspirin when the drug is used in doses up to 1,500 mg/d. The second mechanism is platelet-dependent and is characterized by the inhibition of thrombin generation in a whole-blood system. A single dose of 500 mg depresses the rate of thrombin generation, while repeated daily dosing with 300 mg aspirin reduces the total amount of thrombin formed. An interaction with platelet phospholipids, which is blunted in hypercholesterolemia, has been proposed to explain the effects of aspirin on thrombin generation. It is possible (but unproven) that this effect occurs as a consequence of impaired platelet coagulant activity secondary to the inhibition of thromboxan-dependent platelet aggregation. It is unknown whether lower doses of aspirin are able to produce this effect. Furthermore, high-dose aspirin therapy can cause abnormal coagulation by direct acetylation of one or more clotting factors. This can be demonstrated in platelet-poor plasma and, thus, is not related to platelet inhibition or vitamin K antagonism.

Èç Platelet-Active Drugs : The Relationships Among Dose, Effectiveness, and Side Effects
Carlo Patrono, Barry Coller, James E. Dalen, Garret A. FitzGerald, Valentin Fuster, Michael Gent, Jack Hirsh, and Gerald Roth
Chest 119: 39S-63S.

Ñ äðóãîé ñòîðîíû, ñîãëàñíî ìåòà-àíàëèçó àñïèðèíîâûõ êëèí. èññëåäîâàíèé (BMJ 1994), à òàêæå èññëåäîâàíèþ ÐÅÐ (Lancet 2000) àñïèðèí ñïîñîáñòâóåò ïðåäóïðåæäåíèþ òðîìáîçà ãëóáîêèõ âåí / ÒÝËÀ íà 35-45(!)%, (äëÿ ñðàâíåíèÿ ÷àñòîòó èíôàðêòà ñíèæàåò íà 25-35%), íî íè â îäíîì ðóêîâîäñòâå íåâîçìîæíî îáíàðóæèòü òàêèõ ðåêîìåíäàöèé, êîãäà ñóùåñòâóþùèå àëüòåðíàòèâû (ãåïàðèí, âàðôàðèí) áîëåå ýôôåêòèâíû (ðèñê ñíèæåíèÿ 60-80% ïî ñðàâíåíèþ ñ ïëàöåáî). Ïîýòîìó, êðàìîëüíî, íî ñïðàâåäëèâî: êòî áîèòñÿ ãåïàðèíà-âàðôàðèíà è íàçíà÷àåò àñïèðèí, òî ïîñòóïàåò ïîòåíöèàëüíî âåðíî, íî íå ðàöèîíàëüíî äëÿ ïàöèåíòà, ñíèæàÿ ðèñê òðîìáîçà/ýìáîëèè, íî íå äîñòàòî÷íî ýôôåêòèâíî.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #9  
Ñòàðûé 21.06.2004, 18:48
Àâàòàð äëÿ yakov
yakov yakov âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Âðà÷-ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.07.2001
Ãîðîä: Áîëüøîé ãîðîä
Ñîîáùåíèé: 2,819
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 4 ðàç(à) çà 3 ñîîáùåíèé
yakov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyakov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyakov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyakov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyakov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyakov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyakov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyakov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyakov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyakov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåyakov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò gnusik
Ñïàñèáî áîëüøîå çà îòâåò. Åñëè ÿ âñå-òàêè ïðåêðàùó ïðèåì íå äîïèâ 21 äåíü, à íàïðèìåð ïðîòèâ òîëüêî íåäåëþ, ÷òî ìåíÿ îæèäàåò? Ïðèäåò ëè ìåíñòðóàöèÿ íà 7 äåíü ïîñëå îêîí÷àíèÿ ïðèåìà?
Äà, äàæå ìîæåò áûòü è ðàíüøå, ÷åðåç 3-5 äíåé.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #10  
Ñòàðûé 28.06.2004, 14:58
gnusik gnusik âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë æåíñêèé
Ñåðôåð
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 17.06.2004
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3
gnusik *
Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò yakov
Äà, äàæå ìîæåò áûòü è ðàíüøå, ÷åðåç 3-5 äíåé.
Áîëüøîå ñïàñèáî. òàê âñå è ïðîèçîøëî. Åùå ðàç áîëüøîå ñïàñèáî çà ïîìîùü!
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
Îòâåò


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