Äèñêóññèîííûé Êëóá Ðóññêîãî Ìåäèöèíñêîãî Ñåðâåðà

Âåðíóòüñÿ   Äèñêóññèîííûé Êëóá Ðóññêîãî Ìåäèöèíñêîãî Ñåðâåðà > Èíôîðìàöèÿ è êîììåð÷åñêàÿ ðåêëàìà > Îçîíîòåðàïèÿ

Îçîíîòåðàïèÿ Ðàçäåë çàêðûò äëÿ ïóáëèêàöèè ñîîáùåíèé.

 
 
Îïöèè òåìû Ïîèñê â ýòîé òåìå Îïöèè ïðîñìîòðà
  #1  
Ñòàðûé 17.10.2001, 20:27
Àâàòàð äëÿ Gilarov
Gilarov Gilarov âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Âðà÷-ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 26.07.2001
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 7,196
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 713 ðàç(à) çà 691 ñîîáùåíèé
Gilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Óâàæàåìûé Âëàäèìèð ßêîâëåâè÷!
Èçâèíèòå çà íåêîòîðóþ ïàóçó â íàøåé äèñêóññèè, îòáûâàë íåíàäîëãî èç Ìîñêâû. Èòàê, â õðîíîëîãè÷åñêîì ïîðÿäêå: ñ Âëàäèìèðîì Âèêòîðîâè÷åì ÿ çíàêîì è çíàþ, ÷òî íåêîòîðîå âðåìÿ îí çàíèìàëñÿ îçîíîòåðàïèåé. Îäíàêî, ñåé÷àñ, ïî ìîèì ñâåäåíèÿì, çàíÿòèÿ ýòè ïðåêðàòèë ïî íåèçâåñòíûì ìíå ïðè÷èíàì. Äàëåå... Ñòàòüÿ ïðèâåäåííàÿ Âàìè, ëó÷øàÿ èç âñåãî òîãî ÷òî ÿ ÷èòàë ïî Âàøåé ðåêîìåíäàöèè. Êàê óæå ïèñàëà Ãàëèíà Àôàíàñüåâíà, íå ïîíÿòíî, ïî÷åìó íàøè àâòîðû íå ìîãóò ïðîâîäèòü ïîäîáíûå èññëåäîâàíèÿ. Îäíàêî ïî ïðî÷òåíèè ýòîé ñòàòüè ÿ íå ñòàíó íàçíà÷àòü ïàöèåíòàì ñ ãèïåðòîíèåé îçîí. È âîò ïî÷åìó. 1) Ãðóïïà áîëüíûõ êðàéíå ìàëà 2)Ýôôåêò îçîíà íå ñëèøêîì âûðàæåí 3)Áîëüíîìó ëåã÷å ïðèíèìàòü òàáëåòêè, ÷åì êîëîòü ÷òî-òî â âåíó 4)Îçîí îòðèöàòåëüíî âëèÿåò íà ëèïèäíûé ñïåêòð è ñâåðòûâàåìîñòü êðîâè.  îáùåì, òðåáóþòñÿ äàëüíåéøèå èññëåäîâàíèÿ.
  #2  
Ñòàðûé 18.10.2001, 11:40
V. ZAITSEV V. ZAITSEV âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.07.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,330
V. ZAITSEV
Óâàæàåìûé Ìèõàèë Þðüåâè÷!
Ïîçâîíèë Âëàäèìèð Âèêòîðîâè÷ó. Îí äàæå îáèäåëñÿ: îòêóäà äåñêàòü òàêàÿ íåïðîâåðåííàÿ èíôîðìàöèÿ. Ïðèøëîñü îòâåòèòü: ñâîè èñòî÷íèêè íå âûäàåì.
Ïî ïîâîäó ïîñëåäíåé ñòàòüè: ñåðåíüêàÿ ðàáîòà íîâè÷êîâ îò îçîíîòåðàïèè, íî èìååòñÿ âîëøåáíîå ñëîâî "ïëàöåáî" – è Âàì ïîíðàâèëîñü. È íå íà ñâåðòûâàåìîñòü ÎÒ âëèÿåò, à íà ðåîëîãèþ ( ñíèæåíèå âÿçêîñòè, óëó÷øåíèå äåôîðìèðóåìîñòè ýðèòðîöèòîâ, ñíèæåíèå àãðåãàöèåé è ò. ï.) êðîâè, ÷òî äàâíûì-äàâíî óñòàíîâëåíî. À ýòî, êàê Âû ïîíèìàåòå, ñîâñåì äðóãîå äåëî. Äà è ãèïåðòîíèÿ (çäåñü ÿ ñ Âàìè ñîãëàñåí) íå ëó÷øåå ìåñòî äëÿ ïðèëîæåíèÿ ÎÒ, õîòÿ îíà è ñïîñîáñòâóåò íîðìàëèçàöèè äàâëåíèÿ.
À ïðèâåë ÿ ýòó ñòàòüþ, ïîòîìó, ÷òî íèêàêèå äîâîäû î ìíîãî÷èñëåííûõ ýêñïåðèìåíòàëüíûõ ðàáîòàõ, òûñÿ÷àõ ñðàâíèòåëüíûõ êëèíè÷åñêèõ íàáëþäåíèé, ïîäòâåðæäåííûõ îáøèðíûìè ëàáîðàòîðíûìè àíàëèçàìè è äàæå òî, ÷òî ñàìè âðà÷è, âëàäåþùèå äàííîé ìåòîäèêîé ïðåäïî÷èòàþò ëå÷èòü ñåáÿ è áëèçêèõ ÎÒ íå ïðèíèìàëèñü âî âíèìàíèå áåç ìàãè÷åñêèõ ñëîâ: randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled.
Îçîíîòåðàïèþ ñòàëè ïðèìåíÿòü çàäîëãî äî òîãî, êàê ïëàòî÷åê â êàðìàøêå (ïëàöåáî), ñòàë íåîáõîäèìûì àòðèáóòîì äëÿ âûñøåãî ìåäèöèíñêîãî ñîîáùåñòâà. Ïîýòîìó, â íàñòîÿùåå âðåìÿ, ìîæíî òîëüêî ïåðåïðîâåðèòü âûâîäû ñ ó÷åòîì ñîâðåìåííûõ òðåáîâàíèé. À êëèíè÷åñêèå îò÷åòû ðàçëè÷íûõ Ðîññèéñêèõ áîëüíèö, óâàæàåìàÿ Ãàëèíà Àôàíàñüåâíà, íå ìîãóò áûòü ïèëîòíûìè èññëåäîâàíèÿìè, ò.ê. èì ïðåäøåñòâîâàëè äåñÿòêè äðóãèõ ðàáîò, ñâÿçàííûõ ñ ÎÒ ïðè äàííîé ïàòîëîãèè.

Ñ óâàæåíèì.
  #3  
Ñòàðûé 18.10.2001, 18:21
Àâàòàð äëÿ Melnichenko
Melnichenko Melnichenko âíå ôîðóìà
ÂÐÀ×
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 26.07.2001
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 117,472
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 26
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 33,694 ðàç(à) çà 32,767 ñîîáùåíèé
Melnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Ãëóáîêîóâàæàåìûé ã-í Çàéöåâ !
 öåëÿõ äóøåâíîãî ñïîêîéñòâèÿ áëàãîñëîâëÿþ Âàñ íà ëþáûå íðàâÿùèåñÿ Âàì èññëåäîâàíèÿ ïî ëþáîìó äèçàéíó .ß ðàçðåøàþ Âàì ïëþíóòü íà îñíîâû äîêàçàòåëüíîé ìåäèöèíû ,è äåéñòâîâàòü âïðåäü ïî ñâîåìó óñìîòðåíèþ ,ïðåçðåâ âñå íàêàðÿáàííîå íàìè âñåìè ñîâîêóïíî .
Óáåäèòåëüíî ïðîøó Âàñ òàêæå âûäàòü ìíå ðàçðåøåíèå îòíîñèòüñÿ ê ýòèì ðàáîòàì â ñîîòâåòñòâèè ñî ñâîèìè óáåæäåíèÿìè ,è óìîëÿþ äàòü ìíå ðàçðåøåíèå õîòü èçðåäêà âûñêàçûâàåòü ( âíå ñàéòà ïî îçîíîòåðàïèè ) êðèòè÷åñêèå çàìå÷àíèÿ . Íà ñàéò ïî îçîíîòåðàïèè ïðè äèàáåòå ÿ âûéäó òîëüêî ïðè óðãåíòíûõ ñèòóàöèÿõ ,ïðè êîòîðûõ æèçíü ìîèõ áîëüíûõ áóäåò â îïàñíîñòè .
Èñêðåííå
__________________
Ã.À. Ìåëüíè÷åíêî
  #4  
Ñòàðûé 18.10.2001, 19:18
V. ZAITSEV V. ZAITSEV âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.07.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,330
V. ZAITSEV
Ãëóáîêîóâàæàåìàÿ Ãàëèíà Àôàíàñüåâíà!
×òî æå ìíå ñäåëàòü, ÷òîáû Âû òàê íå ñåðäèëèñü?
Ñëóøàòü, îòêðûâ ðîò, ìóäðûå ðåêîìåíäàöèè, è íå â êîåì ñëó÷àå íå âîçðàæàòü? Òàêàÿ äèñêóññèÿ Âàì áóäåò èíòåðåñíåå? Ïî÷åìó Âàñ òàê âîçìóùàåò, ÷òî ÿ ïûòàþñü ïîñìîòðåòü íà ñôîðìóëèðîâàííûå ïðàâèëà äîêàçàòåëüíîé ìåäèöèíû ÷åðåç ïðèçìó çäðàâîãî ñìûñëà. Èëè çàêîí åñòü çàêîí? Íó çà÷åì, íàïðèìåð, ïëàöåáî èëè äâîéíûå ñëåïûå äëÿ ðàäèîàêòèâíîãî éîäà?
È, ïîòîì, Ãàëèíà Àôàíàñüåâíà, ìîæåò Âû íå áóäåòå áðîñàòü íàñ â òðóäíóþ ìèíóòó?
ß âåäü, ïî ïðè÷èíå ñâîåãî íåâåæåñòâà, íå ñîçíàþ, ÷òî ñâîèìè ñîîáùåíèÿìè ìîãó ñîçäàòü «óðãåíòíóþ ñèòóàöèþ, ïðè êîòîðûõ æèçíü Âàøèõ áîëüíûõ áóäåò â îïàñíîñòè».
Ñ óâàæåíèåì.
  #5  
Ñòàðûé 18.11.2001, 08:34
Alexander Kotok Alexander Kotok âíå ôîðóìà
Íà÷èíàþùèé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 26.07.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 93
Alexander Kotok î ðåïóòàöèè ýòîãî ó÷àñòíèêà íåëüçÿ ñêàçàòü íè÷åãî îïðåäåëåííîãî
Lightbulb Ê ñëîâó

Íåïëîõàÿ ññûëêà äëÿ ëþáèòåëåé "äîêàçàòåëüíîé ìåäèöèíû". Íå òî, ÷òîáû ïðîäàæíîñòü íûíåøíèõ "íàñòîÿùèõ èññëåäîâàòåëåé" êîãäà-ëèáî áûëà áîëüøèì ñåêðåòîì (ñåêðåò Ïîëèøèíåëÿ!), íî âîò òàê, áåç îáèíÿêîâ.... Ñíèìàþ øëÿïó ïåðåä ðåäêîëëåãèÿìè "âåäóùèõ æóðíàëîâ", õîòÿ, ðàçóìååòñÿ, íè ê ÷åìó ýòà íîâàÿ ïðàêòèêà íå ïðèâåä¸ò. Ïðîñòî êîíöû â âîäó áóäóò ïðÿòàòüñÿ áîëåå òùàòåëüíî - è âñ¸.
[Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]
  #6  
Ñòàðûé 18.11.2001, 12:49
V. ZAITSEV V. ZAITSEV âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.07.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,330
V. ZAITSEV
Óâàæàåìûé ä-ð Êîòîê.
Åñëè ó Âàñ íàéäåòñÿ âðåìÿ, çàéäèòå íà «Ñâîáîäíóþ äèñêóññèþ –Ìåäèêàìåíòîçíûå è íåìåäèêàìåíòîçíûå ìåòîäû â ìåäèöèíå». Òàì ïðèâîäÿòñÿ èñòî÷íèêè, ãäå ýòà òåìà ðàñêðûòà áîëåå êîíòðàñòíî (28-10-2001). Êðîìå òîãî, â äàëüíåéøåì, ïðèâîäÿòñÿ ëþáîïûòíûå ññûëêè èç êíèãè Sidney M.Wolf «Worst pills Best pills» è äð.

Ñ óâàæåíèåì.
  #7  
Ñòàðûé 18.11.2001, 19:41
Alexander Kotok Alexander Kotok âíå ôîðóìà
Íà÷èíàþùèé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 26.07.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 93
Alexander Kotok î ðåïóòàöèè ýòîãî ó÷àñòíèêà íåëüçÿ ñêàçàòü íè÷åãî îïðåäåëåííîãî
Ñïàñèáî, ä-ð Çàéöåâ, ïðî÷èòàë ñ èíòåðåñîì. Åñëè çàáóäó - êàê òîëüêî îòêðîåòñÿ ìîé ñàéò, íàä êîòîðûì ÿ ñåé÷àñ óñåðäíî ðàáîòàþ âìåñòå ñ âåá-ìàñòåðîì Ðóñìåäñåðâåðà, çàéäèòå òàì íà "Ïðèâèâêè", â ðàçäåë "Ïðèâèâî÷íàÿ ïîëèòèêà - êàê ýòî äåëàåòñÿ". Òàì áóäóò ïðèìåðû òàêîãî ðîäà. Ñîîáùåíèå îá îòêðûòèè ñàéòà áóäåò Âàì ïîñëàíî e-mail.
  #8  
Ñòàðûé 10.05.2002, 17:35
V. ZAITSEV V. ZAITSEV âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.07.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,330
V. ZAITSEV
Ëþáîïûòíàÿ, íåîæèäàííàÿ äëÿ ìåíÿ èíôîðìàöèÿ.
Íà ãëàçà ïîïàëñÿ ïðîòîêîë õèðóðãè÷åñêîãî îáùåñòâà Ïèðîãîâà, 2195 çàñåäàíèå (2001)
Ïðåíèÿ ïî äîêëàäó
Êîìïëåêñíîå ëå÷åíèå ÿçâåííûõ äåôåêòîâ è èíôåêöèè ñòîïû ó áîëüíûõ ñàõàðíûì äèàáåòîì.
Ð.Ñ.Ìèòþøèí (êàôåäðà îáùåé õèðóðãèè ÑÏáÃÌÀ èì. È.È.Ìå÷íèêîâà).
Íåñêîëüêî âûñòóïàþùèõ, â òîì ÷èñëå ïðîô. Þ.Ì.Ñòîéêî, ïðîô. Þ.À.Ñïåñèâöåâ îòìåòèëè, ÷òî ïðè äàííîé ïàòîëîãèè äîëæíû ïðèìåíÿòüñÿ øèðå îçîíîòåðàïèÿ, îáðàáîòêà ïóëüñèðóþùåé ñòðóåé,….. Ýòî ïîçâîëÿåò óìåíüøèòü ïðîöåíò àìïóòàöèé.
Ìåíÿ ýòî íåñêîëüêî îçàäà÷èëî, ò.ê. ïî ìîèì ñâåäåíèÿì, ïðè äèàáåòè÷åñêîé ñòîïå â Ñ-Ïåòåðáóðãå, îçîíîòåðàïèþ ïîêà íå ïðàêòèêóþò.
  #9  
Ñòàðûé 23.01.2003, 23:58
V. ZAITSEV V. ZAITSEV âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.07.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,330
V. ZAITSEV
Óâàæàåìàÿ Ãàëèíà Àôàíàñüåâíà!
Èçâèíèòå, ÷òî ïèøó çäåñü (÷òîáû íå ìåøàòüñÿ â äèñêóññèè «Ãèïåðòîíè÷åñêèé êðèç è ñàõàðíûé äèàáåò»), íî, âîçìîæíî, åñëè äîêòîð Ëåêòîð óâèäåë áû íàçâàíèå «ãëèêîçèëèðîâàííûé ãåìîãëîáèí», îí áû âñïîìíèë, ÷òî ýòî òàêîå.
  #10  
Ñòàðûé 22.02.2003, 01:22
V. ZAITSEV V. ZAITSEV âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.07.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,330
V. ZAITSEV
Äîïîëíèòåëüíàÿ èíôîðìàöèÿ ê îäíîìó èç âîïðîñîâ óâ. ä-ðà Ãèëÿðîâà.

© Springer-Verlag 2001
Ozonized autohemotransfusion improves hemorheological parameters and oxygen delivery to tissues in patients with peripheral occlusive arterial disease
R. Giunta1, A. Coppola1, C. Luongo2, A. Sammartino2, S. Guastafierro3, contact1contact1, A. Grassia1, L. Giunta1, L. Mascolo2, A. Tirelli3 and L. Coppola1
(1) Department of Geriatrics and Metabolic Diseases, Second University of Naples, Piazza L. Miraglia, 2, 80138 Naples, Italy
(2) Hyperbaric Medicine Service, Second University of Naples, Piazza L. Miraglia, 2, 80138 Naples, Italy
(3) Department of Hematology, Second University of Naples, Largo Madonna delle Grazie, 2, 80138 Naples, Italy

Abstract. Twenty-seven subjects suffering from peripheral occlusive arterial disease (POAD, clinical stage II-III according to Fontaine) were enrolled in this study to evaluate the effect of oxygen-ozone therapy upon hemorheological parameters and hemoglobin-oxygen affinity in patients with POAD. All patients underwent a major ozonized autohemotransfusion consisting of the slow reinfusion of 100 ml of autologous blood, previously exposed to a O2-O3 mixture in a glass box for 10 min. Whole blood viscosity, erythrocyte filterability, hematocrit, and fibrinogen levels were assessed at the basal time and 30 min after the reinfusion of ozonized blood. At the same time p50 standard (p50std) values (an indicator of hemoglobin-oxygen affinity) and plasma values of malonyl dialdehyde (MDA, an indicator of lipid peroxidation) were evaluated. At the baseline, patients had significantly higher (p<0.05-p<0.001) whole blood viscosity, MDA, and p50std values and significantly lower blood filterability (p<0.01) as compared with 20 matched healthy volunteers (controls). Thirty minutes after the end of a major autohemotransfusion, whole blood viscosity significantly decreased (p<0.01). This was accompanied by a significant fall in plasma fibrinogen level (p<0.01) with no change in hematocrit. Blood filterability, MDA plasma level, and p50std values increased significantly at the same time (p<0.01-p<0.005). The 2,3-DPG value did not change significantly. No significant changes occurred when the same patients received a non-ozonized autohemotransfusion (control test). In conclusion, ozonized autohemotransfusion may be useful to improve both the poor rheological properties of the blood and the oxygen delivery to tissues in patients suffering from POAD.

Ïî âòîðîé ðàáîòå « Verrazo G, Coppola L, Luongo C, Sammartino A, Giunta R, Grassia A, Ragone R, Tirelli A. Hyperbaric oxygen, oxygen-ozone therapy, and rheological parameters of blood in patients with peripheral occlusive arterial disease. Undersea and Hyperbaric Medicine 1995; 22:17-22» - ÿ íå èìåþ
â ýëåêòðîíîì âèäå äàæå abstract.
Íî ãëàâíûé âûâîä ðàáîòû: Oxygen-ozone, but not hyperbaric oxygen, altered rheological parameters in patients with peripheral occlusive vascular disease.
Ñëåäóåò íàïîìíèòü, ÷òî ïðè îçîíîòåðàïèè ðàçëè÷íûõ ôîðì êèñëîðîäà â îðãàíèçì ïîïàäàåò íè÷òîæíî ìàëî, ïî ñðàâíåíèþ ÃÁÎ.

P. S. Ïðîøó the vain turkey cock ñâîèìè êîììåíòàðèÿìè íå áåñïîêîèòü.
  #11  
Ñòàðûé 16.03.2003, 14:39
V. ZAITSEV V. ZAITSEV âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.07.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,330
V. ZAITSEV
Ðàçðåøèòå ñíà÷àëà ïåðåíåñòè ñ ôîðóìà «Êàðäèîëîãèÿ» íàøó äèñêóññèþ ïî äèàáåòè÷åñêîé ñòîïå ñ óâ. ïðîô. Ã.À. Ìåëüíè÷åíêî, ò. ê. ñîâåðøåííî ñîãëàñåí ñ íåé, ÷òî äèñïóò íà äàííóþ òåìó íà òîì ôîðóìå íåóìåñòåí.

Melnichenko
ïðîôåññîð
01-03-2003 20:10

Óâàæàåìûé Âëàäèìèð ßêîâëåâè÷ !
ß íå ïèøó, ÷òî îçîí äîðîæå , ÿ ïèøó ÷òî áåç îçîíà ìèð ñïðàâëÿåòñÿ ñ ïðîáëåìîé äèàáåòè÷åñêîé ñòîïû íàìíîãî ëó÷øå………………………………..


V. ZAITSEV
Ìîäåðàòîð ôîðóìà ïî îçîíîòåðàïèè
01-03-2003 22:09

Óâàæàåìàÿ Ãàëèíà Àôàíàñüåâíà!
…………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Ê òåì ðàáîòàì, ïî äèàáåòè÷åñêîé ñòîïå (Íåìåöêèì, Ôðàíöóçñêèì, Êóáèíñêèì, ×åøñêèì, Ïîëüñêèì, Èçðàèëüñêèì), íà êîòîðûå ÿ óæå ññûëàëñÿ, ïðèâîæó àííîòàöèè äâóõ ñîâñåì ñâåæèõ Èòàëüÿíñêèõ ðàáîò â
[Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]
37th ANNUAL SCIENTIFIC MEETING OF THE EUROPEAN SOCIETY FOR CLINICAL INVESTIFATION.
Åñëè Âû íàéäåò âðåìÿ íà íèõ âçãëÿíóòü, òî åù¸ ñ áîëüøåé óâåðåííîñòüþ, áåç òåíè ñîìíåíèÿ ñìîæåòå óòâåðæäàòü, ÷òî «áåç îçîíà ìèð ñïðàâëÿåòñÿ ñ ïðîáëåìîé äèàáåòè÷åñêîé ñòîïû íàìíîãî ëó÷øå».


Melnichenko
ïðîôåññîð
01-03-2003 23:57

Âçãëÿíóâ íà ýòè òåçèñû, ÿ áåç òåíè ñîìíåíèÿ ìîãó óòâåðæäàòü , ÷òî ïèøóùèå ïî àíãëèéñêè èòàëüÿíöû óìåþò êóäà ëó÷øå , ÷åì ÂÀøè Ñàðàíñêèå êîëëåãè , ïîêàçàòü òî , î ÷åì ÿ ãîâîðþ ÂÀì óæå 3 ãîäà íàøåãî çíàêîìñòâà - åñëè åñòü åäèíè÷íûå áîëåå - ìåíåå íîðìàëüíûå ðàáîòû ( õîòü äâå ïðåäñòàâëåííûå èòàëüÿíñêèå , â êîòîðûõ â íåêîíòðîëèðóåìîì , íåðàíäîìèçèðîâàííîì èññëäåîâàíèè ïîêàçàíî , ÷òî â íåáîëüøèõ ãðóïïàõ áîëüíûõ íà ôîíå ñòàíäàðòíîãî ëå÷åíèÿ ìîæíî èñïîëüçîâàòü è îçîíîòåðàïèþ ñ íåêîòîðûì óñïåõîì ), òî èìååò ñìûñë èõ ïðîäîëæàòü ñ ãðàìîòíûìè ñïåöèàëèñòàìè , âî èçáåæàíèå äèñêðåäèòàöèè ìåòîäà . Íà ìåñòå Ì.Þ . Ãèëÿðîâà ÿ áû óæå äàâíî íàìåêíóëà íàì , ÷òî íà âîïðîñ ïàöèåíòêè îí âïîëíå ðàçóìíî îòâåòèë , à íàø èíôîðìàöèîííûé øóì íèêàêîãî îòíîøåíèÿ ê òåìå äèñêóñèè íå èìååò , ðàâíî êàê è â öåëîì íàøå ïîÿâëåíèå â ýòîì ðàçäåëå

V. ZAITSEV
Ìîäåðàòîð ôîðóìà ïî îçîíîòåðàïèè
02-03-2003 03:39

«….÷òî â íåáîëüøèõ ãðóïïàõ áîëüíûõ íà ôîíå ñòàíäàðòíîãî ëå÷åíèÿ ìîæíî èñïîëüçîâàòü è îçîíîòåðàïèþ ñ íåêîòîðûì óñïåõîì».

Ñïàñèáî, Ãàëèíà Àôàíàñüåâíà. Âû, êàê âñåãäà, ïîä÷åðêíóòî îáúåêòèâíû ê àëüòåðíàòèâíûì ïðèìåíÿåìûì Âàìè ìåòîäèêàì. (Äëÿ ñïðàâêè, êòî íå ÷èòàë: ÎÒ ïðèìåíèëè íà 60 äèàáåòèêàõ ñ íåçàæèâàþùèìè ÿçâàìè, ó êîòîðûõ ïîñëå ìåñÿöà ñòàíäàðòíîé òåðàïèè îòñóòñòâîâàëè êàêèå-ëèáî ïðèçíàêè óëó÷øåíèÿ).

Melnichenko
ïðîôåññîð
02-03-2003 16:06
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Èòàê , ðàçáîð äâóõ èòàëüÿíñêèõ ðàáîò , îïóáëèêîâàííûõ â îäíîì ñáîðíèêå òåçèñîâ êîíãðåññà ïî ÎÇÎÍÓ .
Åùå ðàç çàìå÷ó - êîíãðåññû ïðîâîäÿòñÿ è âåùåñòâî èçó÷àåòñÿ - çäåñü íèêàêèõ âîçðàæåíèé íåò .
Òåçèñû ñáîðíèêîâ îòíîñÿòñÿ ê òàê íàçûâàåìîé "ñåðîé "ëèòåðàòóðå - ò.å. ýòî íå ðåöåíçèðóåìûå , ÷ðåçâû÷àéíî òðåáîâàòåëüíûå ê äèçàéíó ðàáîòû è ê åå ïðåäñòàâëåíèþ æóðíàëû .
Òåçèñû - ýòî ÷òîáû çäðàâûå ìûñëè , äàæå íå Áîã âåñòü êàê èçëîæåííûå , íå ïðîïàëè äàðîì .
Èòàê , äâå ðàáîòû . ïî - ìîåìó , îäíîé è òîé æå ãðóïïû àâòîðîâ .
Ðàçáåðåì îäíó ( ïîáîéòåñü Áîãà , Â.ß. , ÿ ñêîëüêî ðàç Âàñ ïðîñèëà ñàìîãî íàó÷èòüñÿ ÷èòàòü ëèòåðàòóðó !!! ) .
Ñîîáùàåòñÿ , ÷òî áûëî 60 áîëüíûõ ñ äèàáåòîì è òðîôè÷åñêèìè ÿçâàìè ( ëîêàëèçàöèÿ íå óêàçûâàåòñÿ ) , ó êîòîðûõ ïîñëå ìåñÿöà âåäåíèÿ ïî õîðîøèì ñòàíäàðòàì ( ñòàíäàðòû óêàçûâàþòñÿ ) ÿçâû íå çàðóáöåâàëèñü . Îò ñåáÿ äîáàâëþ - áûâàåò..
Àâòîðû âêëþ÷èëè â èññëåäîâàíèå 58 ( êóäà äåëèñü äâà äðóãèõ - íå â÷èòàëàñü , ì.á, ñêàçàíî ) è , ÏÐÎÄÎËÆÀß êîìïåíñèðîâàòü äèàáåò è ïðî÷åå ëå÷åíèå ( ïîñëåäíåå - ïî óìîë÷àíèþ , íå ïðåêðàòèëè æå íîðìàëèçîâàòü ñàõàð ) åùå äîáàâèëè îçîí , ïîñëå ÷åãî ó 30 ïðîöåíòîâ âñå õîðîøî çàæèëî ( ñðîê - çàáûëà ) , åùå , ïîëîæèì , ó 20 íàìåòèëñÿ ñóùåñòâåííûé ïðîãðåññ .
Îäíàæäû ìû óæå ðàçáèðàëè ïîäîáíóþ ðàáîòó , Âëàäèìèð ßêîâëåâè÷ , ñ òî÷êè çðåíèÿ íàó÷íîãî äèçàéíà ðàáîòà îòâå÷àåò ÒÎËÜÊÎ ÍÀ ÎÄÈÍ ÂÎÏÐÎÑ - ÎÇÎÍ ÍÅ ÂÐÅÄÈÒ ëå÷åíèþ ÿçâåííîãî äåôåêòà .
Äåëî â òîì , ÷òî äëÿ çàæèâëåíèÿ ðàí êàê òàêîâûõ âàæåí ôàêòîð âðåìåíè - çàæèâàëè æå êàê-òî ðàíû ó Àòîñà è åãî äðóçåé - áåç àíòèáèîòèêîâ , îçîíà è ïîâÿçîê îò Äæîíñîí è Äæîíñîí.
Ò.å., âîçìîæíî , áîëåå ïðîäîëæèòåëüíàÿ êîìïåíñàöèÿ äèàáåòà ñìîãëà àêòèâèçèðîâàòü òå ñàìûå çàùèòíûå ñèëû îðãàíèçìà , êîòîðûå òàê ëþáèò Â.ß. , ÷òî è ïîìîãëî çàæèâëåíèþ ó ðÿäà áîëüíûõ , ÍÈÊÒÎ íå èñêëþ÷àåò , ÷òî îçîí ñûãðàë äîïîëíèòåëüíóþ ïîçèòèâíóþ ðîëü , òåì áîëåå , ÷òî â äðóãîé ðàáîòå òå æå ( ïî- ìîåìó ) àâòîðû ó íåáîëüøîãî êîëè÷åñòâà áîëüíûõ äîêàçàëè óìåíüøåíèå áàêòåðèàëüíîé îáñåìåíåííîñòè , ÍÎ ïðè òîì äèçàéíå , ñ êîòîðûì ýòà ðàáîòà ïðîâåäåíà ÍÅÒ ïðÿìûõ äîêàçàòåëüñòâ ýôôåêòèâíîñòè èìåííî îçîíà .
Âìåñòå ñ òåì , ðàçáåé âàâòîðû òå æå 60 ÷åëîâåê íà äâå ãðóïïû ( ïî òàêáëèöå ñëó÷àéíûõ ÷èñëå îòíåñÿ ëèáî ê îäíîé - íà îçîíå , ëèáî ê äðóãîé - íà ôèç. ð-ðå ) , ýòà ðàáîòà èìåëà áû óæå áîëüøèé óðîâåíü äîêàçàòåëüíîñòè .
Òàê ÷òî íàì î÷åíü íóæíà ïðàâèëüíàÿ îðãàíèçàöèÿ èññëåäîâàíèé - íî ó Â.ß. áóäóò âîçðàæåíèÿ è çäåñü.....


V. ZAITSEV
02-03-2003 16:53
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Óâàæàåìàÿ Ãàëèíà Àôàíàñüåâíà!
Ñïàñèáî, ÷òî âñ¸ ðàçëîæèëè ïî ïîëî÷êàì. Íåáîëüøèå íþàíñû. Ñëåäóåò ÷èòàòü íå «ó êîòîðûõ ïîñëå ìåñÿöà âåäåíèÿ ïî õîðîøèì ñòàíäàðòàì ÿçâû íå çàðóáöåâàëèñü», à ñïåöèàëüíî îòîáðàííûå áîëüíûå ó êîòîðûõ çà ìåñÿö òàêîé òåðàïèè «íå áûëî äàæå ïðèçíàêîâ ðóáöåâàíèÿ». Åñòåñòâåííî, êàê óæå íåîäíîêðàòíî ìíå ðàçúÿñíÿëîñü, ó âñåõ ýòèõ áîëüíûõ íà÷àëà ðàáîòàòü ïðåäûäóùàÿ òåðàïèÿ, à ñ îçîíîì, êîòîðûé ëèøü íå âðåäèò, ýòî ñëó÷àéíî ñîâïàëî ïî âðåìåíè. ………………………………………………………
  #12  
Ñòàðûé 16.03.2003, 14:43
V. ZAITSEV V. ZAITSEV âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.07.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,330
V. ZAITSEV
Òåïåðü íîâîå ñîîáùåíèå.

Óâàæàåìàÿ Ãàëèíà Àôàíàñüåâíà.
À ýòî àíàëîãè÷íîå Èòàëüÿíñêîìó ñîîáùåíèå èç Óíèâåðñèòåòñêîãî öåíòðà Õàéôà, Èçðàèëü. Åñëè åù¸ âñïîìíèòü ïðèâîäèìîå ðàíåå ñîîáùåíèå èç Ãåðìàíèè ( Ðîññèÿ, Êóáà, Ïîëüøà íå ñ÷èòàþòñÿ) ìîæíî ãîâîðèòü óæå î ìíîãîöåíòðîâûõ èññëåäîâàíèÿõ?
Çàìåòüòå, ÷òî ïàöèåíòû êàê è ó Èòàëüÿíöåâ áûëè îòîáðàíû íå îò «õîðîøåé æèçíè». Ñðåäíåé ïðîäîëæèòåëüíîñòü ñòàíäàðòíîãî, áåçðåçóëüòàòíîãî ëå÷åíèÿ ýòèõ áîëüíûõ - 8.5 ìåñÿöåâ. 11 ãîòîâèëè ê àìïóòàöèè, à îíè ïî âèíå ÎÒ îñòàëèñü ïðè íîãàõ.

OZ-PO-056: THE MICROCLIMATE CHAMBER: TOPICAL TREATMENT OF LONG-ENDURING LEG ULCERS WITH OZONE.
Noam A. Calderon and Teddy Kaufman.
Division of Plastic Surgery, Bnai-Zion University Medical Center, Haifa, Israel.
Chronic leg ulcers associated with a risk of amputation imply challenges to the medical team. The aim of this study is to assess the topical effects of ozone and oxygen on the healing process of long-enduring ulcers of the lower leg, which previously have not responded to conventional modalities of treatment. 63 patients were included, who sustained leg ulcers for a mean duration of 8.5 months, suffering of diabetes mellitus; venous or arterial insufficiency or, a combination of them. Eleven patients were previously candidates for amputation of the limb in another institution. Local treatment consisted of conventional topical wound care with adjuvant treatment with ozone and oxygen delivered topically unto the wounds 3 times/week – employing a newly designed microclimate chamber. Healing was assessed by serial digital photography and a computerized plannimetry, while bacteriology – by serial quantitative bacterial counts of the affected wounds. No side effects were observed. The mean number of treatments was 28.5/patient. In 49 patients (including 11 who were previously candidates for amputation) spontaneous healing was noted or, skin grafting was employed to the well-granulated wounds. Pseudomonas aeroginosa and Staphiloccoccus aureus were eradicated within 24 and 48 hours, respectively. Although in 14 patients no amelioration was observed, due to delayed dislough of the eschar, the bacteriostatic effects of ozone on wound’s flora was significant. In view of the beneficial effects of ozone, we recommend to further extend the study on a larger scale of patients.
  #13  
Ñòàðûé 16.03.2003, 23:30
Àâàòàð äëÿ Melnichenko
Melnichenko Melnichenko âíå ôîðóìà
ÂÐÀ×
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 26.07.2001
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 117,472
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 26
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 33,694 ðàç(à) çà 32,767 ñîîáùåíèé
Melnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Âëàäèìèð ßêîâëåâè÷ , ìíå óæàñíî çàáàâíî âîçâðàùàòüñÿ èç äðóãèõ êðàåâ è âíîâü ïðîäîëæàòü áåñåäó ñ ÂÀìè .
Ïðè ýòîì Âû ëþáåçíî âûäåðãèâàåò ôðàãìåíòû íàøèõ ïðåæíèõ ðàçãîâîðîâ , äîïîëíÿåòå íîâûìè ñòàòüÿìè , è ãëóáîêî óáåæäåíû , ÷òî äåëàåòå äîáðîå äåëî . ß îòðûâàþñü îò êó÷è äåë è íà÷èíàþ ðàçáèðàòü öèòèðîâàííûå ÂÀìè èñòî÷íèêè , ïðè ýòîì ìåíÿ êàæäûõ ðàç ïîðàæàåò Âàøå ñòðåìëåíèå äîêàçàòü - à ÷òî , ñîáñòâåííî , Âû äîêàçûâàåòå ? ×òî ðåáÿòà â ðàçíûõ ñòðàíàõ áîëåå èëè ìåíåå äîáðîñîâåñòíî ïûòàþòñÿ íàéòè ïðèìåíåíèå îçîíó - â ìåðó ñâîåãî ðàçóìåíèÿ , ïðîâîäÿ ðàçëè÷íûå ðàçðîçíåííûå è íåñèñòåìàòèçèðîâàííûå êëèíè÷åñêèå èññëåäîâàíèÿ ? Íó è ñëàâà Áîãó , ïðîáëåìà â òîì , ÷òî ïîäàâëÿþùåå áîëüøèíñòâî òàêèõ ðàáîò ïî äåòñêè íàèâíî , èíîãäà íåäîáðîñîâåñòíî , èíîãäà áîëå èëè ìåíåå ðàçóìíî è çàñëóæèâàåò âíèìàíèÿ .
Âû ñäåëàëè áû êóäà áîëåå ðàçóìíóþ âåùü , åñëè áû ïîïðîáîâàëè ñî ñïåöèàëèñòàìè ïðîâåñòè ðåàëüíûé àíàëèç äàííûõ , à íå çàñòàâëÿòü ìåíÿ íà íî÷ü ãëÿäþ÷è ðàññêàçûâàòü ÂÀì , ÷åì òðîôè÷åñêàÿ ÿçâà ïðè âåíîçíîé íåäîñòàòî÷íîñòè äàæå ó áîëüíîãî ñ äèàáåòîì îòëè÷àåòñÿ îò ñèíäðîìà äèàáåòè÷åñêîé ñòîïû , ïî÷åìó íàäî áîëåå âíÿòíî ðàññêàçûâàòü îá àòåðîñêëåðîòè÷åêñêèõ ïîðàæåíèÿõ è ïð. ß âåäü íå ìîãó èç òåêñòà ÂÀøèõ ðåáÿò ïîíÿòü , î ÷åì âîîáùå èäåò ðå÷ü è íà êàêóþ àìïóòàöèþ áûëè îáðå÷åíû áîëüíûå ? È ïðàâû ëè ðåáÿòà èç îòäåëåíèÿ îáùåé õèðóðãèè ,èëè íåò , ñ÷èòàÿ , ÷òî áîëüíûå áûëè îáðå÷åíû ..
Ïîñêîëüêó â îòäåëåíèÿõ ñ êàáèíåòàìè äèàáåòè÷åñêîé ñòîïû ëþäè áåç âñÿêîãî îçîíà ëå÷àò ÿçâåííûå äåôåêòû ( ïîíèìàåòå , ýòî ïîëàãàåòñÿ äåëàòü ) , òî âñå ìû õîòèì óçíàòü , ïî êàêèì ïîêàçàíèÿì è êàêèì áîëüíûì îçîí ìîæåò îêàçàòüñÿ äåéñòâèòåëüíî íóæíûì . À èç íåâíÿòíûõ âûäåðíóòûõ ÂÀìè ñòðîê ýòî îòíþäü íå ÿñíî .
Áûëî áû êóäà ëó÷øå , åñëè áû ñàïîãè òà÷àë ñàïîæíèê , à ïèðîãè ïåê ïèðîæíèê - ò.å. åñëè áû ëþäè , ñïåöèàëèçèðóþùèåñÿ â ýòîé îáëàñòè ( à íå äèëåòàíòû èç îáùèõ îòäåëåíèé ) ïîñìîòðåëè áû êàê âåñü ïóë ðàáîò ïî óçêîé ïðîáëåìå - ò.å. òðîôè÷åñêèå ÿçâû ïðè âåíîçíîé íåäîñòàòî÷íîñòè ïðè äèàáåòå - ýòî îäíî íàïðàâëåíèå , ñèíäðîì íåéðîïàòè÷åñêîé äèàáåòè÷åñêîé ñòîïû - äðóãîå , èøåìè÷åñêàÿ ñòîïà - òðåòüå è ïð , ïðîäóìàëè áû , êàê ñîñòåìàòèçèðîâàòü ñâåäåíèÿ è ÷òî äîäåëàòü ...Ýòî ïðèíåñëî áû êóäà áîëüøå ïîëüçû ÂÀøåìó ëþáèìîìó îçîíó , ÷åì ïå÷àòàíèå íåâíÿòèö ñ ãëèêèðîâàííûì ãåìîãëîáèíîì ÂÀøèìè Ñàðàíñêèìè äðóçüÿìè ....
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Ã.À. Ìåëüíè÷åíêî
  #14  
Ñòàðûé 17.03.2003, 00:24
V. ZAITSEV V. ZAITSEV âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.07.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,330
V. ZAITSEV
Ïðîñòèòå Ãàëèíà Àôàíàñüåâíà!
Ðàçâå ÿ ïðîñèë « íà íî÷ü ãëÿäþ÷è » ðàññêàçûâàòü ìíå, ÷åì òðîôè÷åñêàÿ ÿçâà ïðè âåíîçíîé íåäîñòàòî÷íîñòè äàæå ó áîëüíîãî ñ äèàáåòîì ….? Äà è â ïðèâåäåííîé àííîòàöèè ãîâîðèòñÿ, ÷òî áîëüíûå áûëè è ñ âåíîçíîé íåäîñòàòî÷íîñòüþ è ñ îáëèòåðèðóþùåì ïîðàæåíèåì àðòåðèé è â êîìáèíàöèè. È íå «ïûòàëèñü îíè íàéòè ïðèìåíåíèå îçîíó» , ìíå èçâåñòíà ïîäîïëåêà ýòîé ðàáîòû.  êëèíèêå áûëè ñîáðàíû áîëüíûå, êîòîðûå íèêàê íå øëè íà ñòàíäàðòíûõ ìåòîäèêàõ èç ðàçëè÷íûõ óãîëêîâ Èçðàèëÿ. Íî âåäü ïðîùå ïðåäïîëîæèòü, ÷òî âñå îíè (íåìöû, èòàëüÿíöû, èçðàèëüòÿíå) ïðîñòî íå óìåþò ëå÷èòü «ïî íîðìàëüíîìó» ýòè ÿçâû, ÷åì îòêàçàòüñÿ îò ìûñëè, ÷òî îçîí çäåñü íèêîìó íå íóæåí.
  #15  
Ñòàðûé 23.03.2003, 21:10
udovichenko udovichenko âíå ôîðóìà
Ñåðôåð
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 06.10.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 5
udovichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò õîðîøóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Post Ïî÷åìó ìíîãèå âðà÷è íå äîâåðÿþò ïðèâåäåííûì ïóáëèêàöèÿì ïî îçîíîòåðàïèè

Óâàæàåìûå Êîëëåãè, ïîçâîëüòå ïðèñîåäèíèòüñÿ ê äèñêóññèè (íà ñòîðîíå êðèòèêîâ îçîíîòåðàïèè, â ÷àñòíîñòè – ïðè ñèíäðîìå äèàáåòè÷åñêîé ñòîïû). Åñòü ðÿä ïðè÷èí, ïî êîòîðûì ìíîãèå ÷ëåíû ïðîôåññèîíàëüíîãî ñîîáùåñòâà íå äîâåðÿþò ïðèâîäèìûì èññëåäîâàíèÿì, ïîäòâåðäèâøèì ýôôåêòèâíîñòü îçîíà ïðè ýòîì ñîñòîÿíèè:
Èçâåñòíî, ÷òî ñèíäðîì äèàáåòè÷åñêîé ñòîïû (â óçêîì ñìûñëå – ãíîéíî-äåñòðóêòèâíûå ïîðàæåíèÿ ñòîï; 85% ñëó÷àåâ ïðåäñòàâëåíû òðîôè÷åñêèìè ÿçâàìè) ïðåäñòàâëÿåò ñîáîé ñåðüåçíóþ ïðîáëåìó. Ðàñïðîñòðàíåííîñòü ýòîãî ñîñòîÿíèÿ äîñòàòî÷íî âûñîêà: 5-10% îò âñåõ áîëüíûõ ñàõàðíûì äèàáåòîì (ò.å., â Ìîñêâå, îðèåíòèðîâî÷íî, 10-20 òûñÿ÷ áîëüíûõ äèàáåòîì ñòðàäàþò â äàííûé ìîìåíò îò ÑÄÑ). Äîâîëüíî ðàñïðîñòðàíåíî çàáëóæäåíèå, ÷òî «ÑÄÑ íå ëå÷èòñÿ ìåòîäàìè ñîâðåìåííîé ìåäèöèíû». Ýòî íå òàê: ëå÷åíèå ÑÄÑ äåéñòâèòåëüíî òðóäîåìêî, íî óñïåõ âïîëíå âîçìîæåí. Ïðåæäå âñåãî, íàäî âñïîìíèòü, ÷òî ÑÄÑ – ãåòåðîãåííîå ñîñòîÿíèå: îêîëî 60% áîëüíûõ ñòðàäàþò îò ÍÅÉÐÎÏÀÒÈ×ÅÑÊÎÉ ôîðìû (è íå èìåþò çíà÷èìûõ ïðîáëåì ñ êðîâîñíàáæåíèåì íèæíèõ êîíå÷íîñòåé). Îñòàâøèåñÿ ñëó÷àè – ýòî ÍÅÉÐÎ-ÈØÅÌÈ×ÅÑÊÀß È ÈØÅÌÈ×ÅÑÊÀß ôîðìû (ïîñëåäíÿÿ äîñòàòî÷íî ðåäêà è âñòðå÷àåòñÿ ó 5-10% ÑÄÑ). Ëå÷åíèå ýòèõ ñîñòîÿíèé ñèëüíî îòëè÷àåòñÿ.  ïåðâîì ñëó÷àå ÏÐÀÂÈËÜÍÎÅ êîíñåðâàòèâíîå ëå÷åíèå ïðèâîäèò ê çàæèâëåíèþ ÿçâû ó 80-90% áîëüíûõ. Äëÿ äîñòèæåíèÿ ýòîãî óñïåõà íåîáõîäèìî ñîáëþäåíèå ðÿäà óñëîâèé:
1. Ïîëíàÿ ðàçãðóçêà çîíû ÿçâåííîãî äåôåêòà. Ïàöèåíò íå äîëæåí íàñòóïàòü íà ðàíó, äëÿ ÷åãî ïðèìåíÿþòñÿ ðàçëè÷íûå ðàçãðóçî÷íûå ïðèñïîñîáëåíèÿ èëè ïîñòåëüíûé ðåæèì
2. Ïîäàâëåíèå ðàíåâîé èíôåêöèè ñ ïîìîùüþ àäåêâàòíîé àíòèáèîòèêîòåðàïèè
3. Íîðìàëèçàöèÿ ñàõàðà êðîâè
4. Ïðàâèëüíàÿ ìåñòíàÿ îáðàáîòêà ÿçâû (áåç ïðèìåíåíèÿ äóáÿùèõ àíòèñåïòèêîâ òèïà ñïèðòîâûõ ðàñòâîðîâ, «ìàðãàíöîâêè» è ò.ï.) + ðåãóëÿðíîå óäàëåíèå ãèïåðêåðàòîçîâ âîêðóã ðàíû, íåêðýêòîìèÿ + èñïîëüçîâàíèå âìåñòî ïîâÿçîê íà îñíîâå ìàðëè ñîâðåìåííûõ ïåðåâÿçî÷íûõ ìàòåðèàëîâ (êîòîðûå àòðàâìàòè÷íû äëÿ ðàíû è óæå ïîýòîìó íå çàìåäëÿþò çàæèâëåíèå).
5. Ïðè íåîáõîäèìîñòè – óñòðàíåíèå îòåêà êîíå÷íîñòè, äåçèíòîêñèêàöèîííàÿ òåðàïèÿ.

Ïðè íàëè÷èè èøåìèè âñå ýòè êîìïîíåíòû ëå÷åíèÿ íåîáõîäèìû, íî ÷àñòî íåäîñòàòî÷íû. Åñëè èìåþòñÿ âûðàæåííûå ïðåïÿòñòâèÿ äëÿ êðîâîòîêà (ñóæåíèå àðòåðèé áîëåå ÷åì íà 70%) – ýòî ìîæåò ñëóæèòü íåïðåîäîëèìûì ïðåïÿòñòâèåì äëÿ çàæèâëåíèÿ íåñìîòðÿ íà âñå óñèëèÿ. Çàðóáåæíûå äîêòîðà ïðîõîäèëè âñå ýòî 1-2 äåñÿòèëåòèÿ íàçàä. Ïûòàëèñü ïðèìåíÿòü è ñèìïàòýêòîìèþ, è ÃÁÎ, è âàçîàêòèâíûå ïðåïàðàòû – è â ðåçóëüòàòå ïðèøëè ê ïîíèìàíèþ òîãî, ÷òî íàäî ïðîñòî íå çàíèìàòüñÿ åðóíäîé, à ïðåäîñòàâëÿòü ýòèì áîëüíûì âîçìîæíîñòè äëÿ ðåêîíñòðóêòèâíûõ îïåðàöèé íà àðòåðèÿõ (÷òî è äåëàåòñÿ â íàñòîÿùåå âðåìÿ).
Òåïåðü – áëèæå ê îçîíîòåðàïèè
Ïîíÿòíî, ÷òî âñå ýòè ìåòîäû äîëæíû ïðèìåíÿòüñÿ. Èõ ýôôåêòèâíîñòü íåîäíîêðàòíî äîçêàçàíà. Âðÿä ëè êòî-òî áóäåò ñ ýòèì ñïîðèòü è íàäåÿòüñÿ, ÷òî îçîíîòåðàïèÿ ïîìîæåò èçëå÷èòü òðîôè÷åñêóþ ÿçâó, íà êîòîðóþ ïàöèåíò íàñòóïàåò ïðè êàæäîì øàãå, äåëàÿ 500 èëè 1000 øàãîâ â äåíü? Âîïðîñ ñòîèò òàê: óñêîðèò ëè äîáàâëåíèå îçîíîòåðàïèè (äîðîãîãî è ïîòåíöèàëüíî íåáåçîïàñíîãî ìåòîäà ëå÷åíèÿ) ê ýòèì ìåòîäàì çàæèâëåíèå òðîôè÷åñêîé ÿçâû ïðè ÑÄÑ?
Êàêîâû îñíîâíûå ïðåòåíçèè ê ïðîöèòèðîâàííûì â ýòîé äèñêóññèè èññëåäîâàíèÿì?
1. Ãðóïïû äîëæíû áûòü ñîïîñòàâèìû ïî âñåì ïàðàìåòðàì, äëÿ ÷åãî íåîáõîäèìî ñëó÷àéíîå ðàñïðåëåíèå áîëüíûõ íà îçîíîòåðàïèþ èëè â ãðóïó ñðàâíåíèÿ. Ïðèìåð ïðàâèëüíîãî ñëó÷àéíîãî ðàñïðåäåëåíèÿ - c èñïîëüçîâàíèåì «ìåõàíè÷åñêîãî ãåíåðàòîðà ñëó÷àéíûõ ÷èñåë» (ïîäáðàñûâàíèå ìîíåòû, è ïðèíÿòèå ðåøåíèÿ íà îñíîâàíèè «îðëà èëè ðåøêè»). Èçâåñòíî, ÷òî ðàñïðåäåëåíèå ïî äàòå ãîñïèòàëèçàöèè èëè ïî íîìåðó èñòîðèè áîëåçíè è ò.ï. ÿâëÿåòñÿ «ïñåâäîñëó÷àéíûì» (äî âêëþ÷åíèÿ áîëüíîãî â èññëåäîâàíèå ìîæíî óãàäàòü, â êàêóþ ãðóïïó îí ïîïàäåò) è íå äîëæíî ïðèìåíÿòüñÿ. Ê ñîæàëåíèþ, ÿ âèäåë, êàê ïðîèçâîäèòñÿ ôîðìèðîâàíèå ãðóïï âî ìíîãèõ îòå÷åñòâåííûõ èññëåäîâàíèÿõ è ÍÅ ÂÅÐÞ, ÷òî â ïðèâåäåííûõ èññëåäîâàíèÿõ ðàñïðåäåëåíèå áûëî ñëó÷àéíûì.
2. Äëÿ îáúåêòèâíîé îöåíêè ðåçóëüòàòîâ ëå÷åíèÿ íåîáõîäèìî èñïîëüçîâàíèå ïëàöåáî è äâîéíîãî ñëåïîãî êîíòðîëÿ. Ñîãëàñèòåñü, ÷òî ìîæíî (È ÍÓÆÍÎ) îðãàíèçîâàòü òàêîå èññëåäîâàíèå: îäíîé ãðóïïå ââîäèòü îçîíèðîâàííûé ðàñòâîð, à âòîðîé – íåîçîíèðîâàííûé. Åñëè îíè ðàçëè÷àþòñÿ ïî âèäó – çàêðûâàòü íåïðîçðà÷íûì ïàêåòîì. Ýòî òåì áîëåå âàæíî, ÷òî ìíîãèå èç îöåíèâàåìûõ ïàðàìåòðîâ äîñòàòî÷íî ñóáúåêòèâíû (ñì. äàëåå), è âåðà ïàöèåíòà â òî, ÷òî îí ïîëó÷àåò «ñîâðåìåííîå è ýôôåêòèâíîå ëå÷åíèå» ìîæåò óëó÷øàòü åãî ñàìî÷óâñòâèå, ñïîñîáñòâîâàòü âûïîëíåíèþ äðóãèõ ïðåäïèñàíèé âðà÷à è ò.ï.
3. Êàê ãîâîðèëîñü âûøå, íåéðîïàòè÷åñêèå è (íåéðî)èøåìè÷åñêèå ÿçâû – ïðèíöèïèàëüíî ðàçíûå ñîñòîÿíèÿ. Ïîýòîìó ñòàäèÿ äèàáåòè÷åñêîé àíãèîïàòèè – íå óíèâåðñàëüíûé ïîêàçàòåëü âûðàæåííîñòè òðîôè÷åñêèõ ðàññòðîéñòâ ó áîëüíûõ ÑÄ. Âðÿä ëè ýòó óñòàðåâøóþ êëàññèôèêàöèþ ñòîèò ïðèìåíÿòü ñåãîäíÿ: îíà áûëà ñîçäàíà â òå âðåìåíà, êîãäà ñ÷èòàëè, ÷òî «ïðè äèàáåòå âñå ïðîáëåìû ñ íîãàìè – îò ñîñóäîâ».  ïðèâåäåííûõ ðàáîòàõ âîîáùå íåò èíôîðìàöèè î òîì, êàêàÿ ôîðìà ÑÄÑ áûëà ó áîëüíûõ.
4. Ïðè îöåíêå ìåòîäà ëå÷åíèÿ (â ÷àñòíîñòè, òðîôè÷åñêèõ ÿçâ) íàèáîëåå âàæíà îöåíêà «êîíå÷íûõ èñõîäîâ ëå÷åíèÿ» - âðåìÿ äî ïîëíîãî çàæèâëåíèÿ ÿçâ (èëè äîëÿ ÿçâ, çàæèâøèõ çà îïðåäåëåííîå âðåìÿ), êîëè÷åñòâî è óðîâåíü àìïóòàöèé è ò.ï. Äàæå óìåíüøåíèå ïëîùàäè ðàíû çà âðåìÿ ëå÷åíèÿ ñ÷èòàåòñÿ íå âïîëíå íàäåæíûì ïîêàçàòåëåì: ðàíà ìîæåò ñíà÷àëà óìåíüøèòüñÿ, íî çàòåì âîîáùå íå çàæèòü.  ïðèâåäåííûõ èññëåäîâàíèÿõ äîñòàòî÷íî ìíîãî âûâîäîâ äåëàåòñÿ íà îñíîâàíèè «ñóððîãàòíûõ ïàðàìåòðîâ» (òèïè÷íûå ïðèìåðû – «âÿçêîñòü êðîâè», «ñîäåðæàíèå âàíàäèÿ â ýðèòðîöèòàõ», óðîâåíü àíòèòåë è ò.ï.). Èçìåíåíèå ýòèõ ïàðàìåòðîâ ìîæåò íèêàê íå ïîìî÷ü áîëüíîìó â âûçäîðîâëåíèè. Îöåíêà ñóáúåêòèâíûõ ïàðàìåòðîâ òèïà «óëó÷øåíèÿ âèäà ðàíû» èëè «îáùåãî ñîñòîÿíèÿ» â íå-ïëàöåáîêîíòðîëèðóåìûõ èññëåäîâàíèÿõ âîîáùå «íå ïðîõîäèò» (à â ïëàöåáî-êîíòðîëèðóåìûõ íàäî ðàçðàáàòûâàòü ñïåöèàëüíûå øêàëû äëÿ îöåíêè ýòèõ õàðàêòåðèñòèê â áàëëàõ (õîòÿ îíè âñå ðàâíî ïðè ýòîì îñòàíóòñÿ ñóððîãàòíûìè)). Êðîìå òîãî, ó ëþáîãî ýíäîêðèíîëîãà âûçîâåò ëèøü óëûáêó ñîîáùåíèå î «ñíèæåíèè ãëèêîçèëèðîâàííîãî ãåìîãëîáèíà íà 70% çà âðåìÿ ëå÷åíèÿ»: ýòîò ïîêàçàòåëü îòðàæàåò ñðåäíèé óðîâåíü ñàõàðà â êðîâè çà ïîñëåäíèå 3 ìåñÿöà è ÿâëÿåòñÿ íå «ôàêòîðîì ãèïîêñèè òêàíåé», à ëèøü îáúåêòèâíûì ïîêàçàòåëåì ñòåïåíè äåêîìïåíñàöèè äèàáåòà. Äàæå ïðè äîñòèæåíèè ñòîéêîé êîìïåíñàöèè ÑÄ äëÿ íîðìàëèçàöèè ýòîãî ïîêàçàòåëÿ íåîáõîäèìî 2-3 ìåñÿöà ïîääåðæèâàòü ýòî ñîñòîÿíèå. Âåðîÿòíî, ÷òî îçîíèðîâàíèå êðîâè âëèÿåò íà ðåçóëüòàòû îïðåäåëåíèÿ ãëèêîçèëèðîâàííîãî ãåìîãëîáèíà (ò.å., ôàêòè÷åñêè çàíèæàåò ýòîò ïîêàçàòåëü), è âðÿä ëè îò ýòîãî åñòü ïîëüçà.

 çàêëþ÷åíèå õî÷åòñÿ ñêàçàòü ñëåäóþùåå: íèêòî íå ïðîòèâ èññëåäîâàíèÿ íîâûõ ìåòîäîâ ëå÷åíèÿ (ê êîòîðûì ìîæíî îòíåñòè è îçîíîòåðàïèþ). Òîëüêî íàäî ñòðîãî ñîáëþäàòü ñîâðåìåííûå òðåáîâàíèÿ ê êà÷åñòâåííîìó ïðîâåäåíèþ èññëåäîâàíèé. Èíà÷å áóäóò ïîñòîÿííî ïîÿâëÿòüñÿ íîâûå ðåöåïòû ëå÷åíèÿ ñ íåäîêàçàííîé ýôôåêòèâíîñòüþ, êàæäûé èç êîòîðûõ áóäåò âîñïðèíèìàòüñÿ ðàçðàáîò÷èêàìè è ÷àñòüþ ïàöèåíòîâ êàê ïàíàöåÿ è ÷óäîäåéñòâåííîå ñðåäñòâî.

Ñ óâàæåíèåì,
Óäîâè÷åíêî Îëåã Âèêòîðîâè÷,
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