Äèñêóññèîííûé Êëóá Ðóññêîãî Ìåäèöèíñêîãî Ñåðâåðà
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  #1  
Ñòàðûé 30.07.2004, 02:14
denik denik âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
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Îçîíîòåðàïèÿ ïðè ðàêå?

Óâàæàåìûå êîëëåãè-îçîíîòåðàïåâòû! Ðàñïîëàãàåò ëè êòî-íèáóäü èíôîðìàöèåé î íåêîììåð÷åñêîì ïðèìåíåíèè (ðå÷ü èä¸ò î áëèæàéøåì ðîäñòâåííèêå) îçîíîòåðàïèè ïðè îíêîëîãè÷åñêèõ çàáîëåâàíèÿõ?  êîìïëåêñíîì ëå÷åíèè, âìåñòå ñ ëó÷åâîé è õèìèîòåðàïèåé? Åñëè åñòü òàêîé îïûò, ìåòîäèêè, äîçû - áóäó âåñüìà ïðèçíàòåëåí çà ïîìîùü!
Ñ óâàæåíèåì Íåñòåðîâ Ä.Ê.
Ïîëèêëèíèêà "ÄÍÊ" Õàðüêîâ.
  #2  
Ñòàðûé 30.07.2004, 04:43
V. ZAITSEV V. ZAITSEV âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
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Óâàæàåìûé Íåñòåðîâ Ä.Ê
Çàãëÿíèòå ñþäà: http://forums.rusmedserv.com/showthread.php?t=9558
Ñâÿæèòåñü ñî ìíîé ïî ýëåêòðîííîé ïî÷òå.
  #3  
Ñòàðûé 03.08.2004, 22:05
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E-mail.

Óâàæàåìûé Âëàäèìèð ßêîâëåâè÷! Âàø e-mail ìíå íå èçâåñòåí - îòîñëàë âàì ïåðñîíàëüíîå ñîîáùåíèå ÷åðåç ýòîò ôîðóì.
Ñ óâàæåíèåì Íåñòåðîâ Ä.Ê.
[Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]
  #4  
Ñòàðûé 03.08.2004, 23:08
V. ZAITSEV V. ZAITSEV âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
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Óâàæàåìûé Íåñòåðîâ Ä.Ê.!
Äà. Íî, ÿ íà ýòî ñîîáùåíèå Âàì îòâåòèë.
Ñ óâàæåíèåì.
  #5  
Ñòàðûé 05.08.2004, 21:42
denik denik âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
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Otvet?

Çíàòü áû åù¸ ãäå ýòîò îòâåò ïðî÷åñòü?
 ìîåé ýëåêòðîííîé ïî÷òå [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ] îò Âàñ íè÷åãî íåò...
  #6  
Ñòàðûé 05.08.2004, 23:56
V. ZAITSEV V. ZAITSEV âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
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Îòâåò ïîâòîðíî îòîñëàë â ïåðñîíàëüíîì ñîîáùåíèè.
  #7  
Ñòàðûé 06.08.2004, 00:22
denik denik âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
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Ñïàñèáî!

Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò V. ZAITSEV
Îòâåò ïîâòîðíî îòîñëàë â ïåðñîíàëüíîì ñîîáùåíèè.
Ñïàñèáî çà îòâåò.
  #8  
Ñòàðûé 13.08.2004, 10:12
V. ZAITSEV V. ZAITSEV âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
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Óâàæàåìûé Íåñòåðîâ Ä.Ê.!
Âû ïîëó÷èëè ìîå íîâîå ïåðñîíàëüíîå ñîîáùåíèå? Òàêîå âïå÷àòëåíèå, ÷òî ýòà ôóíêöèÿ èíîãäà ó ìåíÿ «ãëþ÷èò».
  #9  
Ñòàðûé 13.08.2004, 23:17
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Da!

Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò V. ZAITSEV
Óâàæàåìûé Íåñòåðîâ Ä.Ê.!
Âû ïîëó÷èëè ìîå íîâîå ïåðñîíàëüíîå ñîîáùåíèå? Òàêîå âïå÷àòëåíèå, ÷òî ýòà ôóíêöèÿ èíîãäà ó ìåíÿ «ãëþ÷èò».
Ïîëó÷èë, ñïàñèáî!
Ä.Ê.
  #10  
Ñòàðûé 06.02.2005, 23:27
Àâàòàð äëÿ Dobro
Dobro Dobro âíå ôîðóìà
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Dobro ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDobro ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDobro ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDobro ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDobro ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDobro ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDobro ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDobro ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDobro ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Exclamation Îçîíîòåðàïèÿ ïðè ðàêå?

[Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]
"The most touted agents are hydrogen peroxide, germanium sesquioxide, and OZONE. Although these compounds have been the subject of legitimate research, there is LITTLE OR NO EVIDENCE THAT THEY ARE EFFECTIVE for the treatment of any serious disease, and EACH HAS DEMONSTRATED POTENTIAL FOR HARM. "


A primer of complementary and alternative medicine commonly used by patients
Ernst E.The Medical Journal of Australia 15 Jan2001; 174: 88–92.“ [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]

Abstract: Complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) is frequently used by cancer patients,and many oncologists have limited knowledge of CAM. This article provides a brief, evidence-based introduction to several CAM treatments relevant in the context of cancer. “Alternative”diets, chiropractic, coffee enemas, OZONE THERAPY, and shark cartilage seem to have little to offer cancer patients. The evidence for or against homoeopathy and spiritual healing is at present inconclusive. Acupuncture, aromatherapy, and meditation may be useful for nausea/vomiting, for mild relaxation, and for pain/anxiety, respectively. Herbal treatments offer no reasonable prospect of a cure (mistletoe), but could be useful as palliative treatments (eg, for depression [StJohn’s wort] or anxiety [kava]). Our knowledge regarding the potential benefit and harm of CAMis insufficient.

Àáñòðàêò: Îíêîëîãè÷åñêèå ïàöèåíòû äîâîëüíî ÷àñòî ïðèáåãàþò ê ïîìîùè àëüòåðíàòèâíîé èëè êîìïëåìåíòàðíîé ìåäèöèíû, îäíàêî îíêîëîãè ÷àñòî íå èìåþò îá ýòîì íåîáõîäèìûõ çíàíèé.  ýòîé ñòàòüå ïðåäëàãàåòñÿ êðàòêîå evidence-based çíàêîìñòâî ñ íåêîòîðûìè ìåòîäàìè àëüòåðíàòèâíîãî öåëèòåëüñòâà îíêîëîãè÷åñêèõ çàáîëåâàíèé.
Ïîêàçàíî, ÷òî "àëüòåðíàòèâíûå" äèåòû, õèðîïðàêòèêà. êîôåéíûå êëèçìû, ÎÇÎÍÎÒÅÐÀÏÈß, àêóëüè õðÿùè íå îêàçûâàþò íèêàêîãî ïîëîæèòåëüíîãî äåéñòâèÿ ïðè îíêîëîãè÷åñêèõ çàáîëåâàíèÿõ. Íåò äàííûí çà èëè ïðîòèâ ãîìåîïàòèè è ñïèðèòóàëüíîãî öåëèòåëüñòâà.
Àêóïóíêòóðà. àðîìàòîòåðàïèÿ è ìåäèòàöèÿ èíîãäà ìîãóò áûòü ýôôåêòèâíû ïðè òîøíîòå è ðâîòå, äëÿ ðåëàêñàöèè, êóïèðîâàíèÿ áîëè è òðåâîãè, ñîîòâåòñòâåííî.
Ëå÷åíèå òðàâàìè íå îêàçûâàåò íèêàêîãî âëèÿíèÿ íà îïóõîëåâûé ïðîöåññ, íî ìîæåò áûòü èñïîëüçîâàíî äëÿ ïàëëèàòèâíîãî ëå÷åíèÿ (íàïðèìåð, ïðè äåïðåññèè è òðåâîæíîñòè).  öåëîì íàøè çíàíèÿ î ïîòåíöèàëüíîì âðåäå èëè ïîëüçå àëüòåðíàòèâíûõ ìåòîäîâ ëå÷åíèÿ íåäîñòàòî÷íû.



"If you hear that an "alternative" method has produced "miraculous" recoveries from cancer, you should be skeptical. There are at least five reasons why such a report may be erroneous:

1.The patient never had cancer.

2.The cancer was cured or put into remission by proven therapy, but questionable therapy was also used and erroneously credited for the beneficial result.

3.The cancer is progressing but is erroneously represented as slowed or cured.

4.The patient represented as cured may have died as a result of the cancer or been lost to follow-up.

5.The patient had a spontaneous remission (very rare) or slow-growing cancer that was publicized as a cure. "

Stephen Barrett, M.D.



ÏÅÐÅÂÎÄ

"Åñëè Âû óñëûøàëè, ÷òî "àëüòåðíàòèâíûé" ìåòîä âûçûâàë "âîëøåáíûå" èñöåëåíèÿ îíêîëîãè÷åñêèõ çàáîëåâàíèé, îòíîñèòåñü ê ýòîìó ñêåïòè÷åñêè. Ñóùåñòâóåò ïî êðàéíåé ìåðå ïÿòü ïðè÷èí, ïî êîòîðûì ýòè çàÿâëåíèÿ ìîãóò áûòü îøèáî÷íûìè:

1.Ó ïàöèåíòà íèêîãäà íå áûëî ðàêà.

2.Ðàê áûë âûëå÷åí èëè ïåðåâåäåí â ñîñòîÿíèå ðåìèññèè äîêàçàííî ýôôåêòèâíîé òåðàïèåé. Àëüòåðíàòèâíûå ìåòîäû èñïîëüçîâàëèñü îäíîâðåìåííî è îøèáî÷íî âûäàþòñÿ çà "ëå÷åíèå", âûçâàâøåå ðåìèññèþ èëè èçëå÷åíèå.

3.Ðàê â äåéñòâèòåëüíîñòè ïðîãðåññèðóåò, íî îøèáî÷íî ïðåäñòàâëÿåòñÿ ðåãðåññèðóþùèì èëè èçëå÷åííûì.

4.Ïàöèåíò áîëüøå íå íàáëþäàåòñÿ ïî ïîâîäó îíêîëîãè÷åñêîãî çàáîëåâàíèÿ è âûäàåòñÿ çà âûçäîðîâåâøåãî.  äåéñòâèòåëüíîñòè, ïàöèåíò óìåð îò îíêîëîãè÷åñêîãî çàáîëåâàíèÿ.

5.Ïðîèçîøëà ñïîíòàííàÿ ðåìèññèÿ (ðåäêî) èëè ïðîöåññ î÷åíü ìåäëåííûé, è ýòîò ñëó÷àé ïðåäñòàâëÿþò êàê âûçäîðîâëåíèå â ðåçóëüòàòå àëüòåðíàòèâíîãî ëå÷åíèÿ. "

Ñòèâåí Áàððåò,M.D.
  #11  
Ñòàðûé 24.03.2005, 16:39
asgrian asgrian âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
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asgrian ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò îòâðàòèòåëüíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Íåêîòîðûå ñîîáðàæåíèÿ î ôîðóìå

Ãîñïîäà, ïðîàíàëèçèðîâàâ ñëîæèâøóþñÿ ñèòóàöèþ íà ôîðóìå, ÿ ïðèøåë ê íåêîòîðûì çàêëþ÷åíèÿì, êîòîðûìè, âçÿâ íà ñåáÿ òàêóþ ñìåëîñòü, ðåøèë ïîäåëèòüñÿ ñ àóäèòîðèåé
Âî-ïåðâûõ, íóæåí ëè îí, ýòîò ôîðóì?
Îòâå÷àþ, íóæåí. Ìíå è ìíîãèì äðóãèì, êîòîðûõ âîëíóåò ïðîáëåìà ÎÒ, õîòÿ áû ïîòîìó, ÷òî åñòü ñïîðíîñòü, åñòü ðàçíî÷òåíèÿ, åñòü íåäîãîâîðåííîñòè. È åñòü ýíèãìà, êîòîðóþ, åñëè òû èññëåäîâàòåëü õî÷åòñÿ ïîçíàòü.  îáùåì, ðàç ïðîáëåìà ñóùåñòâóåò ïðîôåññèîíàëàì íàäî â íåé ðàçîáðàòüñÿ. Áûëî áû æåëàíèå…
Èíîãäà, âïðî÷åì, íà÷èíàåò êàçàòüñÿ, ÷òî îíî ýòî æåëàíèå óõîäèò èç ñîçíàíèÿ äèñêóòèðóþùèõ, â ðåçóëüòàòå ôîðóì òåðÿåò êîíñòðóêòèâíîñòü.
Êàê êðàéíå çàèíòåðåñîâàííîå ëèöî (à íàøåìó êîëëåêòèâó õîòåëîñü áû êàê ìîæíî ñêîðåå âîéòè â ïðîãáëåìó!), ÿ ïðåäëàãàþ íåñêîëüêî óïîðÿäî÷èòü ðàáîòó â ôîðóìå, ïîïóòíî ïîñòàâèâ è îòâåòèâ íà ðÿä ïðèíöèïèàëüíûõ âîïðîñîâ (íà ïåðâûé èç íèõ ñ áîæüåé ïîìîùüþ ÿ îòâåòèë: ôîðóì íóæåí) –
âîïðîñ òàêîâ: îáëàäàåò ëè îçîí áèîëîãè÷åñêèìè àêòèâíîñòÿìè (âåäü îíà, àêòèâíîñòü, íå îäíà, íå ïðàâäà ëü?)?
ñëåäóþùèé âîïðîñ: åñëè îáëàäàåò, êàê ýòó àêòèâíîñòü èñïîëüçîâàòü â ëå÷åáíûõ öåëÿõ.

Äà áèîëîãè÷åñêàÿ ñèñòåìà – ýòî ìíîãîôàêòîðíàÿ ñèñòåìà. Áèîëîãè è ìåäèêè-òåîðåòèêè, èññëåäóÿ æèâîé îðãàíèçì, èìåþò äåëî ïðåèìóùåñòâåííî ñ ÷åðíûì ÿùèêîì, îíè, êàçàëîñü áû, â ðåçóëüòàòàõ ñâîèõ èññëåäîâàíèé îáðå÷åíû íà èíòåðïðåòàöèþ ëèøü èíòåãðàëüíûõ ðåàêöèé. È òåìíåå íå ìåíåå…ñîâðåìåííàÿ ìåòîäîëîãèÿ íàó÷íîãî ïîèñêà äàåò ñâîè ïëîäû. Äóìàþ, îíà äàñò ðåçóëüòàòû è â îòíîøåíèè îçîíà è åãî âîçìîæíîñòåé êàê áèîëîãè÷åñêîãî ôàêòîðà, êîòîðûé, ñóäÿ ïî îïûòó óæå ïðîâåäåííûõ èññëåäîâàíèé, îáëàäàåò òåðàïåâòè÷åñêèì ýôôåêòîì. Îãîâîðþñü ñðàçó, ýòî íå óòâåðæäåíèå, ýòî îæèäàíèå, ðàáî÷àÿ ãèïîòåçà ñ êîòîðîé íà÷èíàåòñÿ íàøà ðàáîòà.
Ìíå áû õîòåëîñü óâèäåòü îòâåòû íå Â.ß., ïîñêîëüêó èçâèíèòå, èõ çíàþ, à çàîêåàíñêèõ, áëèæíåâîñòî÷íûõ è äðóãèõ «äîáðûõ» êîëëåã.
Åùå áû ÿ ïðåäëîæèë, âñå äëÿ òîé æå êîíñòðóêòèâíîñòè äèñêóññèè âîçäåðæàòüñÿ îò öèòèðîâàíèÿ ðåôåðàòîâ ïóáëèêàöèé. Íå ïîíÿëè äðóã äðóãà, ïðîäîëæàéòå ïîëåìèêó âíå ñàéòà, åñòü å-mail, îáìåíèâàéòåñü ïîëíîé èíôîðìàöèåé, äîãîâàðèâàéòåñü.
Ïðåäëàãàþ êàòåãîðè÷åñêè èçìåíèòü òîíàëüíîñòü ïîëåìèêè. Åñëè êîìó-òî íå íðàâèòüñÿ ôîðóì, óéäèòå, íå ïðåâðàùàéòå åãî â áèòâó àìáèöèé. Íå ðàçðóøàéòå åãî.
Ê ìîäåðàòîðó, íå âîþéòå íà ÷óæîì ïîëå, âû òåîðåòèê, ñèëüíûé ê òîìó æå. Îñòàâüòå êëèíèöèñòàì ðàçáèðàòüñÿ ñ èõ ñêåëåòàìè. Âåðáîâàòü ñòîðîííèêîâ ìåòîäà çäåñü íå ñòîèò. À âîò ðàçîáðàòüñÿ êëèíèöèñòàì â áàçîâûõ âîïðîñàõ òåîðèè, ýòî çàäà÷à, äëÿ ðåøåíèÿ êîòîðîé Âàøà êîìïåòåíòíîñòü áóäåò î÷åíü ïîëåçíîé.
Êòî-òî èç îïïîíåíòîâ ãîâîðèë î øàðëàòàíñòâå. Íó çà÷åì æå òàê. Èäåò íîðìàëüíûé ïîèñê. Èíîãäà, ê ñîæàëåíèþ, ìåòîäîì òûêà. Ïîýòîìó òàê ìíîãî ïðîá, òàê ìíîãî ôîðì ïàòîëîãèè, â, ÿêîáû, ïîêàçàíèÿõ. Íó è ÷òî… Ýòî ïóòü íàêîïëåíèÿ èíôîðìàöèè, òàì ãäå ýêñïåðèìåíò íà æèâîòíûõ áåññèëåí, ò.å â êëèíèêå.
Ãîñïîäà, ïîêà òî÷êè íàä I íå ðàññòàâëåíû, íå êèäàéòåñü êàìíÿìè (òî áèøü, ñëîâàìè). È íå ìåøàéòå!

È åùå, çàìå÷ó, íó ÷òî æå Âû, íàñ ðîññèéñêèõ èññëåäîâàòåëåé îïóñêàåòå äî óðîâíÿ ðàííå-ñîâåòñêîé äðåìó÷åñòè (ýòî ãäå-òî äî- è ïîñëåâîåííûå, 50-å): ìû òî óæå, êàê ïîðÿäî÷íûå, ïðèâûêëè â ñâîèõ ñòàòüÿõ ïðîïèñûâàòü ðóáðèêó «ìàòåðèàë è ìåòîäû èññëåäîâàíèÿ». Ïî êðàéíåé ìåðå, ÿ íèêîãäà íå ïðîïóùó ê ïóáëèêàöèè â æóðíàëå, ãäå îòâå÷àþ çà ýêñïåðèìåíòàëüíî-òåîðåòè÷åñêèé ðàçäåë, ðàáîòó áåç ñòðîãîãî îïèñàíèÿ ìàòåðèàëà è ìåòîäîâ (ýòî ïî ïîâîäó îäíîé èç ðåïëèê îïïîíåíòîâ Â.ß.).
Ìåíÿ óäèâëÿåò, êàê ëåãêî çàáûâàåòñÿ òî, ÷òî ðóññêàÿ øêîëà èññëåäîâàòåëåé äàëà è äàåò ñåãîäíÿ ìèðó òûñÿ÷è îñòåðáàéòåðîâ îò íàóêè, çàáûâàåòñÿ è òî, êàê îõîòíî áåðóò èõ íà âñÿêèå äåøåâûå ïîñòäîêè, ñïîëíà îêóïàþùèå çàòðàòû «äîáðûõ» ðàáîòîäàòåëåé.
Ìåíÿ óäèâëÿåò îòñóòñòâèå íà ýòîì ôîðóìå ñîëèäàðíîñòè íàøèõ áûâøèõ çåìëÿêîâ ñ íàìè, êòî ñåãîäíÿ ðàáîòàåò íà çåìëå, äàâøåé íàì (è, äóìàþ, Âàøèì îòöàì, à ìîæåò è Âàì) øêîëó è èíòåëëåêòóàëüíûé çàðÿä, êîòîðûé ïîçâîëÿåò ïîðîé íàì è Âàì (íà âàøåé «íîâîé» çåìëå èëè ðîäèíå) äåëàòü êàçàëîñü áû íåâîçìîæíîå.
Ìîÿ ïàòåòèêà èçâèíèòåëüíà, ïîòîìó, ÷òî ñëèøêîì ñèëüíûì îêàçàëñÿ ìîé ýìîöèîíàëüíûé îòâåò íà óâèäåííîå íà ôîðóìå. ß è ìîè êîëëåãè ïî îòäåëó (îíè òî æå áûëè íà ôîðóìå) õîòèì, ÷òî áû îí ðàáîòàë ïðîäóêòèâíî, îí íàì íóæåí!



Âàø À.Ñ. (òàê ÿ ïîäïèñûâàþ ñâîè ïèñüìà ê äðóçüÿì).

Êîììåíòàðèè ê ñîîáùåíèþ:
Kostoprav. îäîáðèë(à):
yananshs íå îäîáðèë(à): Íåçàêîííûå ýêñïåðèìåíòû ñ îçîíîì íà ëþäÿõ òðåáóþò îñóæäåíèÿ. Ñìåíèòü òîíàëüíîñòü ðàçãîâîðà ñ øàðëàòàíàìè-îçîíîòåðàïåâòàìè íèêàê íå âîçìîæíî. Îíè - ïðåñòóïíèêè.
 


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