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Îòâåò
 
Îïöèè òåìû Ïîèñê â ýòîé òåìå Îïöèè ïðîñìîòðà
  #16  
Ñòàðûé 23.12.2011, 22:14
Àâàòàð äëÿ ainakoz
ainakoz ainakoz âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Âðà÷-ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 23.12.2008
Ãîðîä: Ðîññèÿ, ×åëÿáèíñê
Ñîîáùåíèé: 2,442
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 24
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 462 ðàç(à) çà 440 ñîîáùåíèé
ainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Íî â îòñóòñòâèè äîêàçàííîé ýôôåêòèâíîñòè, à òåì áîëå îòñóòñòâèè äîêàçàííîé áåçîïàñíîñòè ïðèìåíÿòü ïðåïàðàò íà ÷åëîâåêå êàê ìèíèìóì íå ãóìàííî! Âîò âàì è âñå ïðåçóìïöèè. Ñòàâüòå ñåáÿ íà ìåñòî áîëüíîãî. Ðàçðåøèëè áû âû "òûêàòü" ñåáÿ ïðåïàðàòîì ñ íåäîêàçàííîé áåçîïàñíîñòüþ?
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #17  
Ñòàðûé 23.12.2011, 22:20
Àâàòàð äëÿ Ophthalmist
Ophthalmist Ophthalmist âíå ôîðóìà
Âðà÷-îôòàëüìîëîã
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.11.2010
Ãîðîä: Åâðîïà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 2,057
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 88
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 504 ðàç(à) çà 472 ñîîáùåíèé
Ophthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Öèòàòà:
Íî â îòñóòñòâèè äîêàçàííîé ýôôåêòèâíîñòè, à òåì áîëå îòñóòñòâèè äîêàçàííîé áåçîïàñíîñòè ïðèìåíÿòü ïðåïàðàò íà ÷åëîâåêå êàê ìèíèìóì íå ãóìàííî! Âîò âàì è âñå ïðåçóìïöèè. Ñòàâüòå ñåáÿ íà ìåñòî áîëüíîãî. Ðàçðåøèëè áû âû "òûêàòü" ñåáÿ ïðåïàðàòîì ñ íåäîêàçàííîé áåçîïàñíîñòüþ?
Òàê-òî îíî òàê. Ó íàñ íå ðàçðåøåíû (÷èòàé çàïðåùåíû) èíòðàîêóëÿðíûå ãåìàçû, ÒÀÏû, àâàñòèíû, êåíàëîãè, äèïðîñïàíû, äåêñàìåòàçîíû. È ÷òî? Íå ëå÷èòü? Âñ¸ ýòî óêàçûâàåò ëèøü íà èìáèöèëüíîñòü íàøåãî áþðîõðàíåíèÿ.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #18  
Ñòàðûé 23.12.2011, 22:56
Scorpy555 Scorpy555 âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Ïîñòîÿííûé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 16.05.2010
Ãîðîä: Ëüâîâ
Ñîîáùåíèé: 392
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 5
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 123 ðàç(à) çà 119 ñîîáùåíèé
Scorpy555 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåScorpy555 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåScorpy555 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Ó íàñ â ñòàíäàðòàõ ëå÷åíèÿ ÖÑÕÐÏ - äåêñàìåòàçîí. È áþðîêðàòàì â ìèíèñòåðñòâå íàïëåâàòü íà ãóìàííîñòü è ýâèäåíñ, äà è âîîáùå íà áîëüíûõ.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #19  
Ñòàðûé 24.12.2011, 06:20
Iceeye Iceeye âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 29.11.2010
Ãîðîä: Ðîñòîâ-íà-Äîíó
Ñîîáùåíèé: 109
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 1
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 19 ðàç(à) çà 18 ñîîáùåíèé
Iceeye ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò õîðîøóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò ainakoz Ïîñìîòðåòü ñîîáùåíèå
Íî â îòñóòñòâèè äîêàçàííîé ýôôåêòèâíîñòè, à òåì áîëå îòñóòñòâèè äîêàçàííîé áåçîïàñíîñòè ïðèìåíÿòü ïðåïàðàò íà ÷åëîâåêå êàê ìèíèìóì íå ãóìàííî! Âîò âàì è âñå ïðåçóìïöèè. Ñòàâüòå ñåáÿ íà ìåñòî áîëüíîãî. Ðàçðåøèëè áû âû "òûêàòü" ñåáÿ ïðåïàðàòîì ñ íåäîêàçàííîé áåçîïàñíîñòüþ?
Óâàæàåìûé ainakoz, âçãëÿíèòå íà Âàø ïîñò ¹ 137 â ðàçäåëå äèëåòàíòñêèõ âîïðîñîâ. Ýôôåêòèâíîñòü è áåçîïàñíîñòü ìåòîäèêè äîêàçàíà? Íåò. Íî Âû ïîëó÷àåòå ýôôåêò, à ïàöèåíò óëó÷øåíèå. Òàê çà÷åì îòðèöàòü ÷óæîé îïûò? Äâîéíûå ñòàíäàðòû íå åñòü õîðîøî.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #20  
Ñòàðûé 24.12.2011, 20:37
Darina38 Darina38 âíå ôîðóìà
ÂÐÀ×
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 27.11.2007
Ãîðîä: Tashkent
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,486
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 1,017 ðàç(à) çà 984 ñîîáùåíèé
Çàïèñåé â äíåâíèêå: 1
Darina38 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDarina38 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDarina38 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDarina38 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDarina38 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDarina38 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDarina38 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDarina38 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDarina38 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDarina38 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDarina38 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Íèêòî íå îòðèöàåò ÷óæîé îïûò, íî ìû ðåêîìåíäóåì, ñîãëàñíî ïðàâèëàì ôîðìà, òîëüêî ìåòîäèêè ñ äîêàçàííîé ýôôåêòèâíîñòüþ. Ýòèì ôîðóì è îòëè÷àåòñÿ. À êàæäûé ó÷àñòíèê ïðè çíàêîìñòâå ñ ïðàâèëàìè æìåò íà êíîïêó " ñîãëàñåí". Ñóùåñòâóåò ìàññà ôîðóìîâ, ãäå ìîæíî ðåêîìåíäîâàòü âñå, ÷òî óãîäíî.
Èíòåðåñíî, ÷òî êîãäà êîëëàëèçèí òîëüêî ïîÿâèëñÿ, íàøè âðà÷è ñòàëè àêòèâíî åãî ïðèìåíÿòü. Îñîáîé ýôôåêòèâíîñòè íå áûëî. À ñâåæèå "ïðîöåññû" èìåþò ñâîéñòâî ðàññàñûâàòüñÿ ñàìè. Ñ ýòèì, ÿ äóìàþ, íåëüçÿ íå ñîãëàñèòüñÿ.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #21  
Ñòàðûé 24.12.2011, 20:44
Àâàòàð äëÿ Ophthalmist
Ophthalmist Ophthalmist âíå ôîðóìà
Âðà÷-îôòàëüìîëîã
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.11.2010
Ãîðîä: Åâðîïà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 2,057
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 88
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 504 ðàç(à) çà 472 ñîîáùåíèé
Ophthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Âñ¸ áåññïîðíî òàê. Òîëüêî "íåñâåæèå" ïðîöåññû òàêæå õîòåëîñü áû ðàññîñàòü. Ïðè ÷¸ì ÷åì áûñòðåå, òåì ëó÷øå.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #22  
Ñòàðûé 24.12.2011, 22:31
alexsel1981 alexsel1981 âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Âðà÷-ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 22.07.2011
Ãîðîä: Èâàíîâî
Ñîîáùåíèé: 345
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 6
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 117 ðàç(à) çà 103 ñîîáùåíèé
alexsel1981 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåalexsel1981 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåalexsel1981 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåalexsel1981 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåalexsel1981 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò Ophthalmist Ïîñìîòðåòü ñîîáùåíèå
Òàê-òî îíî òàê. Ó íàñ íå ðàçðåøåíû (÷èòàé çàïðåùåíû) èíòðàîêóëÿðíûå ãåìàçû...
êàê ðàç ýòî è ðàçðåøåíî...[Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #23  
Ñòàðûé 24.12.2011, 22:33
alexsel1981 alexsel1981 âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Âðà÷-ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 22.07.2011
Ãîðîä: Èâàíîâî
Ñîîáùåíèé: 345
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 6
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 117 ðàç(à) çà 103 ñîîáùåíèé
alexsel1981 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåalexsel1981 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåalexsel1981 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåalexsel1981 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåalexsel1981 ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò Scorpy555 Ïîñìîòðåòü ñîîáùåíèå
Ó íàñ â ñòàíäàðòàõ ëå÷åíèÿ ÖÑÕÐÏ - äåêñàìåòàçîí. È áþðîêðàòàì â ìèíèñòåðñòâå íàïëåâàòü íà ãóìàííîñòü è ýâèäåíñ, äà è âîîáùå íà áîëüíûõ.
ñòàíäàðòû ëå÷åíèÿ ýòî ýêîíîìè÷åñêèé ôåíîìåí.....âîîáùå îòäåëüíàÿ òåìà äëÿ ðàçãîâîðà
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #24  
Ñòàðûé 25.12.2011, 12:38
Àâàòàð äëÿ ainakoz
ainakoz ainakoz âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Âðà÷-ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 23.12.2008
Ãîðîä: Ðîññèÿ, ×åëÿáèíñê
Ñîîáùåíèé: 2,442
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 24
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 462 ðàç(à) çà 440 ñîîáùåíèé
ainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò Iceeye Ïîñìîòðåòü ñîîáùåíèå
Óâàæàåìûé ainakoz, âçãëÿíèòå íà Âàø ïîñò ¹ 137 â ðàçäåëå äèëåòàíòñêèõ âîïðîñîâ. Ýôôåêòèâíîñòü è áåçîïàñíîñòü ìåòîäèêè äîêàçàíà? Íåò.
Äîêàçàíà, ïðè÷¸ì íà âûñîêîì óðîâíå (äîêàçàòåëüíîñòè). Èññëåäîâàíèå MPS (The Macular Photocoagulation Study) â 1999 ãîäó. Ñïëîøíîå, êîíòðîëèðóåìîå.
Öèòàòà:
For patients with any of the three above conditions, eyes with well-demarcated areas of classic choroidal neovascularization, as defined by fluorescein angiography, had a better visual prognosis when treated with laser photocoagulation, performed according to MPS guidelines, than when managed by observation.
[Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]

 ïîñòó 137 îïèñàíà ìîäèôèêàöèÿ ôîêàëüíîé ëàçåðêîàãóëÿöèè. Îáñóäèì?
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #25  
Ñòàðûé 25.12.2011, 12:43
Àâàòàð äëÿ ainakoz
ainakoz ainakoz âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Âðà÷-ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 23.12.2008
Ãîðîä: Ðîññèÿ, ×åëÿáèíñê
Ñîîáùåíèé: 2,442
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 24
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 462 ðàç(à) çà 440 ñîîáùåíèé
ainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò alexsel1981 Ïîñìîòðåòü ñîîáùåíèå
êàê ðàç ýòî è ðàçðåøåíî...
À åù¸ òàì íàïèñàíî ÷òî ìîæíî ñ ýìîêñèïèíîì ñî÷åòàòü.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #26  
Ñòàðûé 25.12.2011, 17:55
Àâàòàð äëÿ Ophthalmist
Ophthalmist Ophthalmist âíå ôîðóìà
Âðà÷-îôòàëüìîëîã
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.11.2010
Ãîðîä: Åâðîïà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 2,057
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 88
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 504 ðàç(à) çà 472 ñîîáùåíèé
Ophthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò ainakoz Ïîñìîòðåòü ñîîáùåíèå
Äîêàçàíà, ïðè÷¸ì íà âûñîêîì óðîâíå (äîêàçàòåëüíîñòè). Èññëåäîâàíèå MPS (The Macular Photocoagulation Study) â 1999 ãîäó. Ñïëîøíîå, êîíòðîëèðóåìîå.

[Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]

 ïîñòó 137 îïèñàíà ìîäèôèêàöèÿ ôîêàëüíîé ëàçåðêîàãóëÿöèè. Îáñóäèì?
Ïîäñêàæèòå, íåóæåëè â MPS íå áûëè óêàçàíû òî÷íûå ïàðàìåòðû ëàçåðíîãî ïÿòíà? Ýíåðãèÿ, ðàçìåð..? Âû äîâîëüíî ìîùíî ýêñïåðèìåíòèðóåòå. Ê ïðèìåðó ïî ETDRS åñòü òî÷íûå äàííûå, òî ÷òî â îáùåì áûëî äîêàçàíî è áåçâðåäíî. Âñ¸ ÷òî çà åãî ïàðàìåòðàìè - óæå ëè÷íàÿ èíèöèàòèâà è îòêëîíåíèå îò êàíîíîâ.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #27  
Ñòàðûé 25.12.2011, 18:14
Iceeye Iceeye âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 29.11.2010
Ãîðîä: Ðîñòîâ-íà-Äîíó
Ñîîáùåíèé: 109
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 1
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 19 ðàç(à) çà 18 ñîîáùåíèé
Iceeye ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò õîðîøóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Ophthalmist ñîâåðøåííî ïðàâ. Îïèñàííàÿ ìåòîäèêà íèêàêîãî îòíîøåíèÿ ê MPS íå èìååò. Êñòàòè, íè÷åãî ïðîòèâ òàêîé ìåòîäèêè íå èìåþ, ìû òîæå äåëàåì íå÷òî ïîäîáíîå. Ãîâîðþ, ëèøü î òîì, ÷òî íèêàêîé äîêàçàòåëüíîé áàçû åå ïðèìåíåíèÿ íåò. È ýòî íå åäèíñòâåííûé ïðèìåð íå EBM ìåòîäèê, êîòîðûå ðàáîòàþò.
Upd: ainakoz, à ãëàâíîå, ÷òî ïîëíîñòüþ èäåò ïðîòèâ âûâîäîâ MPS, ýòî ñóáôîâåîëÿðíàÿ ëîêàëèçàöèÿ ìåìáðàíû, êîòîðóþ Âû ëå÷èëè.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #28  
Ñòàðûé 26.12.2011, 05:51
Àâàòàð äëÿ ainakoz
ainakoz ainakoz âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Âðà÷-ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 23.12.2008
Ãîðîä: Ðîññèÿ, ×åëÿáèíñê
Ñîîáùåíèé: 2,442
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 24
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 462 ðàç(à) çà 440 ñîîáùåíèé
ainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåainakoz ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
1. Íèêàêèõ òî÷íûõ ïàðàìåòðîâ â MPS íå îïèñàíî.
2. MPS íå çàïðåùàåò ËÊ ñóáôîâåîëÿðíûõ ìåìáðàí. Îíî âñåãî ëèøü îïèñûâàåò îòñóòñòâèå ïîâûøåíèÿ îñòðîòû çðåíèÿ â òàêèõ ñëó÷àÿõ. Ïîíÿòíî ÷òî â ìî¸ì ñëó÷àå íåâîçìîæíî ïîâûøåíèå îñòðîòû çðåíèÿ íèêàêèìè ìåòîäèêàìè. Ïîñåìó áîðåìñÿ çà ïîëå è ñòàáèëüíîñòü.
3. Óâ. Îôòàëüìèñò! Ãäå â ETDRS óêàçàíû òî÷íûå ïàðàìåòðû ËÊ? Ïðîñâÿòèòå òóãîäóìà, à òî ìîæåò ÿ çðÿ íåñêîëüêî ëåò ïîòðàòèë íà òî ÷òîáû ïîíÿòü è íàó÷èòüñÿ ëå÷èòü ÄÐ?
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #29  
Ñòàðûé 26.12.2011, 06:54
Iceeye Iceeye âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 29.11.2010
Ãîðîä: Ðîñòîâ-íà-Äîíó
Ñîîáùåíèé: 109
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 1
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 19 ðàç(à) çà 18 ñîîáùåíèé
Iceeye ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò õîðîøóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Ðå÷ü ëèøü î òîì, ÷òî îòñóòñòâèå äàííûõ, îñíîâàííûõ íà EBM, íå ïîâîä äëÿ íåèñïîëüçîâàíèÿ ìåòîäèê. Åùå ðàç óòâåðæäàþ, ÷òî ïðè ïðîâåäåííîì Âàìè ëå÷åíèè íà äàííûå MPS ññûëàòüñÿ íå èìååò ñìûñëà. Âû ëå÷èëè îêêóëüòíóþ ìåìáðàíó, â âûâîäàõ MPS ðå÷ü èäåò î ÷åòêî î÷åð÷åííûõ êëàññè÷åñêèõ. Âû èñïîëüçîâàëè êâàçèíåïðåðûâíûé ÈÀà 532, îíè - íåïðåðûâíûé àðãîí 488. È ÷òî, âñåì òåïåðü êîàãóëèðîâàòü àðãîíîì, à ëå÷åíèå äðóãèìè ëàçåðàìè ïðèçíàòü ìåòîäèêàìè ñ íåäîêàçàííîé ýôôåêòèâíîñòüþ?
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #30  
Ñòàðûé 26.12.2011, 16:59
Àâàòàð äëÿ Ophthalmist
Ophthalmist Ophthalmist âíå ôîðóìà
Âðà÷-îôòàëüìîëîã
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.11.2010
Ãîðîä: Åâðîïà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 2,057
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 88
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 504 ðàç(à) çà 472 ñîîáùåíèé
Ophthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåOphthalmist ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò ainakoz Ïîñìîòðåòü ñîîáùåíèå
3. Óâ. Îôòàëüìèñò! Ãäå â ETDRS óêàçàíû òî÷íûå ïàðàìåòðû ËÊ? Ïðîñâÿòèòå òóãîäóìà, à òî ìîæåò ÿ çðÿ íåñêîëüêî ëåò ïîòðàòèë íà òî ÷òîáû ïîíÿòü è íàó÷èòüñÿ ëå÷èòü ÄÐ?
Áîëüøèíñòâî ðóêîâîäñòâ ïðè îïèñàíèè òåõíè÷åñêèõ ïàðàìåòðîâ ëàçåðíûõ êîàãóëÿöèé â ETDRS ññûëàþòñÿ íà ðåïîðò ¹3 ETDRS: The Early Treatment Diabetic Retinopathy Study Research Group. Techniques for scatter and local photocoagulation treatment of diabetic retinopathy: Early Treatment Diabetic Retinopathy Study Report no. 3. Int Ophthalmol Clin. 1987;27:254–264.

Ñðåäè íèõ îïðåäåëåíû ðàçìåð ëàçåðíîãî ïÿòíà, èíòåíñèâíîñòü íàíîñèìîãî îæîãà, ðàçìåð ýòîãî êîàãóëÿòà, ýêñïîçèöèÿ ëàçåðíîãî èçëó÷åíèÿ, íåîáõîäèìîå ÷èñëî êîàãóëÿòîâ, ÷èñëî ñåññèé äëÿ çàâåðøåíèÿ ïåðâè÷íîé êîàãóëÿöèè... Ò.å. âñ¸ ïðîäóìàíî çà íàñ. Ïðè ýòîì â ýòèõ æå ðåïîðòàõ ETDRS äåéñòâèòåëüíî åñòü äîïóùåíèÿ, ïîçâîëÿþùèå ìåíÿòü ýòè ïàðàìåòðû â îïðåäåë¸ííûõ ñëó÷àÿõ.

Öèòàòà:
The intensity of the laser burn was described in the ETDRS as ‘‘moderately intense white burns that do not spread to become appreciably larger than
500 mm.’’68

To achieve a desired intensity the treating
ophthalmologist may make adjustments in several
laser parameters. The laser spot size and duration
are first selected after which the power is adjusted to
reach the desired goal of retinal whitening.68 The
ETDRS protocol called for a setting of 500 mm for
the diameter of the laser spot using a Goldmann
lens. This setting was adjusted to 250–300 mm when
using the Rodenstock lens to achieve a similar effect
without changing the number of burns required for
a complete initial treatment. However, calculations
suggest that a photocoagulator spot size setting of
383 mm using a Rodenstock panfundoscopic lens
might more closely approximate the retinal photocoagulative
effect of a spot setting of 500 mm while
using a Goldmann lens (Table 9.6).156–158 In the
ETDRS, allowance was made for adjusting to a
smaller spot size to reach the desired intensity in
eyes with opaque media (cataract or vitreous
hemorrhage).68 The spot size may also be reduced
to allow for better pain control.128,132 When using
smaller spot sizes, a greater number of burns are
needed to treat a comparable area of the retina.

The laser flash duration in the ETDRS was 0.1 s,
but longer duration was allowed if needed to reach
the intensity goal as needed in eyes with opaque
media.68 Alternatively, the flash duration may be
shortened in an effort to decrease pain with
treatment.128 Laser flashes with shorter duration
(0.01–0.05 s) are less painful than longer duration
(0.1 s) controlling for end point laser intensity.131,132

Burns longer than 0.1 s duration may
increase the risk of traction retinal detachment following
treatment for PDR.160 Shorter pulse duration
is associated with increased risk of chorioretinal
hemorrhage.161,162

With some exceptions the ETDRS required
direct, confluent treatment (200–1000 mm, 0.1–0.5
s, moderately intense whitening) of small, flat areas
of NVE (not more than 2 disk areas, i.e., circle of 1.5
disk diameter) avoiding treatment closer than
500–1000 mm from the center of the macula. The
base of elevated NVE was treated confluently as
well. Although direct photocoagulation may be currently
less popular for the purpose of regression of
NV, there may be a role for treating NVE to create
an adhesion in order to reduce the risk of retinal
detachment from future vitreous/membrane contraction.
119,174

The ETDRS protocol specified the details regarding
the duration of a laser session, the number of
sessions, the time between sessions, and the definition
of completion of PRP. The number of laser burns per
session did not exceed 900 in order to avoid complications
from excessive treatment.68 However, when
urgent treatment completion is needed, exceeding this
guideline is not proscribed in clinical practice.178
Alternatively, fewer laser burns per session may be
considered in a sensitive patient or when shallow
anterior chamber angles threaten closure.67
The number of sessions to complete initial PRP
was two or more in the ETDRS.68

The ETDRS protocol defined the completion of
PRP in terms of total laser applications from all
initial treatment sessions. Between 1200 and 1600
laser burns were required for initial PRP to be complete.
68
Diabetic Retinopathy: Evidance Based Management (David J. Browning) 2010

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