#46
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Óâàæàåìàÿ yananshs! Èäåÿ ýòà äàâíî óæå ïîäòâåðæäåíà øèðîêèì ìåæäóíàðîäíûì îïûòîì è îïûòîì ÑØÀ. È ñ êëèíè÷åñêîé è ñ ýêîíîìè÷åñêîé òî÷êè çðåíèÿ. Íî, íå ó íàñ. Äåëî íå â ïîêóïêå îäíîé, èëè äàæå äåñÿòêà ãàììà-êàìåð. Ýòî óæå áûëî íåîäíîêðàòíî è ðåçóëüòàòû ïëà÷åâíû. Åñëè è ïîêóïàþò, òî íå òóäà, ãäå äåëî óæå îðãàíèçîâàíî, è, êóïèâ, îðãàíèçîâûâàòü åãî òîëêîì íå õîòÿò. Ïîåìó? Î ïðè÷èíàõ çäåñü óñòàâîì ãîâîðèòü íå ïîëîæåíî. Äåëî â öåíòðàëèçîâàííîé îðãàíèçàöèè ñàìîé ñèñòåìû ëàáîðàòîðèé ðàäèîèçîòîïíîé äèàãíîñòèêè è â öåíòðàëèçîâàííîì æå îáó÷åíèè ïåðñîíàëà. Äàæå â òåõ ëàáîðàòîðèÿõ, êîòîðûå åñòü â ñòðàíå ñåé÷àñ, Âû íå íàéäåòå åæåäíåâíîãî èíæåíåðà - òåõíèêà ïðîâåðÿþùåãî íàëàäêó è íàñòðîéêó îáîðóäîâàíèÿ, íå íàéäåòå êâàëèôèöèðîâàííûõ òåõíèêîâ äëÿ ðàáîòû çà ýòîé àïïàðàòóðîé. Âñå ýòî âûïîëíÿåò îäèí âðà÷-ðàäèîëîã. Åñëè â ëàáîðàòîèèè è åñòü âðà÷ ñïîñîáíûé âûïîëíÿòü ñòðåññ-òåñòû è îáîðóäîâàíèå äëÿ ýòîãî (÷òî âñòðå÷àåòñÿ êðàéíå ðåäêî), òî, êàê ïðàâèëî, ýòî òîëüêî òåñòû ñ ôèçè÷åñêîé íàãðóçêîé. È ýòî òîò æå îäèí âðà÷-ðàäèîëîã. Ôàðìàêîëîãè÷åñêèå òåñòû â ïðåäåëàõ ðàäèîèçîòîïíîé ëàáîðàòîðèè âî âñåé Ðîññèè âûïîëíÿþò äàé áîã, â 3-5 ëàáîðàòîðèÿõ. Íå áîëåå. Òî åñòü ïðàêòè÷åñêè íèãäå. À, çíà÷èò, ó ñàìèõ ðàäèîëîãîâ íåò ñîîòâåòñòâóþùèõ íàâûêîâ, è ó êàðäèîëîãîâ íåò îïûòà îáùåíèÿ ñ òàêèìè êâàëèôèöèðîâàííûìè ðàäèîëîãàìè çíàþùèìè õîòÿ áû ïðèçíàêè ñöèíòèãðàìì âûñîêîãî ðèñêà. Åùå ðàç ïîâòîðÿþ - â îäèíî÷êó çäåñü ìîæíî ÷òî-òî äåëàòü ëèøü â îäíîì ó÷ðåæäåíèè, ïîòðàòèâ íà óáåæäåíèå ïåðñîíàëà è àäìèíèñòðàöèè â íåîáõîäèìîñòè ðàäèîèçîòîïíîé äèàãíîñòèêè òàê, êàê ýòî ïîëîæåíî, ëåò 10-15 ñâîåé æèçíè. Íå êàæäûé íà ýòî ïîéäåò â íàøèõ ýêîíîìè÷åñêèõ óñëîâèÿõ. Âñå õîòÿò "âûæèâàòü".
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#47
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Ñïàñèáî, Åâãåíèé Íèêîëàåâè÷, ÿ â êóðñå.
Çîâóò ìåíÿ ßíà. |
#48
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dmblok ñïðàâåäëèâî îòìå÷àë, ÷òî: "...î÷åâèäíûõ äîêàçàòåëüñòâ â òîì, ÷òî ëå÷åíèå äåïðåññèè íà ãîñïèòàëüíîì ýòàïå, âëèÿåò íà òâåðäûå êîíå÷íûå òî÷êè ó áîëüíûõ ñ ÈÌ ïîêà, ê ñîæàëåíèþ íåò...".
Êàê çàíèìàâøèéñÿ â ñâîå âðåìÿ èìåííî ýòîé ïðîáëåìîé (îáçîð ëèòåðàòóðû, íàïèñàííûé ïî äàííîìó âîïðîñó ìîãó âûñëàòü æåëàþùèì) ìîãó äîáàâèòü, ÷òî íà äàííûé ìîìåíò çàêîí÷åíî êðóïíîå ðàíäîìèçèðîâàííîå èññëåäîâàíèå MIND-IT, ïî ðåçóëüòàòàì êîòîðîãî òåðàïèÿ àíòèäåïðåññàíòàìè íå îêàçûâàëà âëèÿíèÿ íà ïðîãíîç ïàöèåíòîâ ïîñëå ÈÌ â òå÷åíèå 18 ìåñÿöåâ íàáëþäåíèÿ. Br J Psychiatry. 2007 Jun;190:460-6. Effects of antidepressant treatment following myocardial infarction. van Melle JP, de Jonge P, Honig A, Schene AH, Kuyper AM, Crijns HJ, Schins A, Tulner D, van den Berg MP, Ormel J; MIND-IT investigators. BACKGROUND: Depression following myocardial infarction is associated with poor cardiac prognosis. It is unclear whether antidepressant treatment improves long-term depression status and cardiac prognosis. AIMS: To evaluate the effects of antidepressant treatment compared with usual care in an effectiveness study. METHOD: In a multicentre randomised controlled trial, 2177 myocardial infarction patients were evaluated for ICD-10 depression and randomised to intervention (n=209) or care as usual (n=122). Both arms were evaluated at 18 months post-myocardial infarction for long-term depression status and new cardiac events. RESULTS: No differences were observed between intervention and control groups in mean scores on the Beck Depression Inventory (11.0, s.d.=7.5 v.10.2, s.d.=5.1, P=0.45) or presence of ICD-10 depression (30.5 v. 32.1%, P=0.68). The cardiac event rate was 14% among the intervention group and 13% among controls (OR=1.07, 95% CI 0.57-2.00). CONCLUSIONS: Antidepressant treatment did not alter long-term depression post-myocardial infarction status or improve cardiac prognosis. |
#49
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Õì, íó, âåðîÿòíî, ïîòîìó è íå óëó÷øèëñÿ ïðîãíîç, ÷òî äåïðåññèè ìåíüøå íå ñòàëî. Âîò åñëè áû òåðàïèÿ áûëà ýôôåêòèâíîé, òî, âîçìîæíî, è ñîáûòèé áûëî áû ìåíüøå. Êñòàòè, èíòåðåñíî, ïî÷åìó àíòèäåïðåññàíòû íå ñðàáîòàëè?
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#50
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Ïîëíîãî òåêñòà ñòàòüè ìíå íàéòè ïîêà íå óäàëîñü, ïîýòîìó îòâåòèòü íà âîïðîñ ïî÷åìó íå "ñðàáîòàëè" àíòèäåïðåññàíòû â ýòîì èññëåäîâàíèè ÿ íå ìîãó. Îäíàêî äàæå åñëè äåïðåññèè "ñòàíîâèòñÿ ìåíüøå" óëó÷øåíèå âûæèâàåìîñòè îñòàåòñÿ ñïîðíûì âîïðîñîì [1]. Òàê â êðóïíîì èññëåäîâàíèè ENRICHD ïðîâåäåíèå êîãíèòèâíî-ïîâåäåí÷åñêîé ïñèõîòåðàïèè (â íåêîòîðûõ, "òÿæåëûõ" ñëó÷àÿõ - ñ äîáàâëåíèåì ñåðòðàëèíà) ó ïàöèåíòîâ ñ äåïðåññèåé ïðè ÈÌ ïðèâîäèëî ê íåáîëüøîìó, íî ñòàòèñòè÷åñêè äîñòîâåðíîìó ñíèæåíèþ òÿæåñòè äåïðåññèâíûõ ñèìïòîìîâ, îäíàêî óëó÷øåíèÿ âûæèâàåìîñòè ïàöèåíòîâ íà ïðîòÿæåíèè, â ñðåäíåì, 29 ìåñÿöåâ íàáëþäåíèÿ âûÿâëåíî íå áûëî.
Ìàëî òîãî, åñòü ðàáîòû â êîòîðûõ òåðàïèÿ ñîïóòñòâóþùåé äåïðåññèè ó ïàöèåíòîâ ñ ÈÁÑ (ñîâðåìåííûìè àíòèäåïðåññàíòàìè, íå òðèöèêëèêàìè!) àññîöèèðîâàëàñü ñ óâåëè÷åíèåì ñìåðòíîñòè áîëüíûõ [2]... 1. The ENRICHD Investigators. Effects of treating depression and low perceived social support on clinical events after a myocardial infarction: the Enhancing Recovery in Coronary Heart Disease Patients (ENRICHD) randomized trial. // JAMA. − 2003. − Vol. 289 (23). − Ð. 3106-16 2. Watkins L.L., Blumenthal J.A., Davidson J.R., et al. Antidepressant use in coronary heart disease patients: impact on survival. // American Psychosomatic Society 64th Annual Meeting, Denver, Colorado. – March 1-4, 2006. Abstracts, P. A-95. Abstract 1553. [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ] |
#51
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Óâàæàåìûé Alevgen! Íàñêîëüêî ÿ çíàþ äåïðåññèÿ óæå ïðèçíàííûé è ñåðüåçíî èçó÷àåìûé äîïîëíèòåëüíûé è íåçàâèñèìûé ôàêòîð ðèñêà ñìåðòåëüíûõ îñëîæíåíèé ïðè ÏÈÊÑ , íåñòàáèëüíîé ñòåíîêàðäèè. Òàêæå äîêàçàíî, ÷òî äåïðåññèÿ óõóäøàåò ïðîãíîç è ïðè äðóãèõ ñåðäå÷íî-ñîñóäèñòûõ çàáîëåâàíèÿõ, â òîì ÷èñëå ñåðäå÷íîé íåäîñòàòî÷íîñòè. Òàê ÷òî ëîãè÷íî ïðåäïîëîæèòü , ÷òî âîçäåéñòâóÿ íà äåïðåññèþ ìîæíî óìåíüøèòü íåãàòèâíîå âëèÿíèå äîïîëíèòåëüíîé àêòèâàöèè ñèìïàòî-àäðåíàëîâîé ñèñòåìû è ïðîâîñïàëèòåëüíûõ öèòîêèíîâ íà ïàòîãåíåç ñåðäå÷íî-ñîñóäèñòîé ïàòîëîãèè.  ÑØÀ â 2008 îïóáëèêîâàíû ðåêîìåíäàöèè ïî äèàãíîñòèêå è ëå÷åíèþ ïîñòèíôàðêòíîé äåïðåññèè, óðîâåíü äîêàçàòåëüíîñòè À- "ïàöèåíòû ñ ïîñòèíôàðêòíîé äåïðåññèåé ïîäëåæàò ëå÷åíèþ â ìåñòàõ, ãäå âîçìîæåí ìîíèòîðèíã ïðîäîëæèòåëüíîñòè ëå÷åíèÿ, îòâåòà íà òåðàïèþ, à òàêæå ïðèâåðæåííîñòè ê ëå÷åíèþ". Ìíå î÷åíü èíòåðåñíû äàííûå ïî âëèÿíèþ äåïðåññèè íà ñåðäå÷íî-ñîñóäèñòûå çàáîëåâàíèÿ, áûëà áû î÷åíü ðàäà îçíàêîìèòüñÿ ñ äàííûìè, ñîáðàííûìè âàìè. Çàðàíåå áëàãîäàðíà!
e-mail óäàëåí. Îçíàêîìüòåñü ñ ïðàâèëàìè ôîðóìà. Ìîäåðàòîð. |
#52
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Êàêàÿ èíòåðåñíàÿ òåìà âûïëûëà
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#53
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Ñîáñòâåííî, äåïðåññèÿ ÿâëÿåòñÿ íåçàâèñèìûì ôàêòîðîì ðèñêà ïîòîìó, ÷òî ïàöèåíòû ñ íåé ïåðåñòàþò ïèòü òàáëåòêè îò ÈÁÑ Êàæåòñÿ, òàê.
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#54
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Ýòî îäíî èç íåãàòèâíûõ ïðîÿâëåíèé äåïðåññèè. Ñóùåñòâóåò îáîñíîâàííîå ìíåíèå , ÷òî äåïðåññèÿ ÿâëÿåòñÿ ïóñêîâûì ôàêòîðîì ñèñòåìíîãî âîñïàëåíèÿ, âûçûâàþùåãî ìíîæåñòâî ïàòîëîãè÷åñêèõ ðåàêöèé îðãàíèçìà, à â ïîñëåäóþùåì è çàáîëåâàíèÿ, òàêèå êàê ñàõàðíûé äèàáåò, ðàê, àðòåðèàëüíàÿ ãèïåðòåíçèÿ, èáñ.
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#55
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Öèòàòà:
Íàâåðíîå. Õîòÿ êó÷à áîëüíûõ êîòîðûå îòêàçûâàþòñÿ ëå÷èòüñÿ áåç âñÿêîé äåïðåññèè. |
#56
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Öèòàòà:
__________________
Èñêðåííå, Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷. |
#57
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Ê ñîæàëåíèþ, ïîñëåäíèå äâà ãîäà, â ñâÿçè ñ èçìåíèâøèìèñÿ ìåñòîì ðàáîòû è ïðèîðèòåòàìè, ÿ íå ñëåæó ïðèñòàëüíî çà ñîñòîÿíèåì ïðîáëåìû âçàèìîäåéñòâèÿ àôôåêòèâíûõ ðàññòðîéñòâ è ÈÁÑ (â ÷àñòíîñòè ÈÌ).
Ê ñåðåäèíå-æå 2007 ãîäà ñèòóàöèÿ ëó÷øå âñåãî îïèñûâàëàñü ôðàçîé: êóðèöà èëè ÿéöî? Äåïðåññèÿ ôàêòîð ðèñêà èëè ìàðêåð? Âåñü íàêîïëåííûé íà òîò ìîìåíò ìàòåðèàë ïî âîïðîñó áûë ñâåäåí â îáçîð, îïóáëèêîâàííûé â 3-4 íîìåðàõ æóðíàëà "Ðàöèîíàëüíàÿ ôàðìàêîòåðàïèÿ â êàðäèîëîãèè" çà 2007 ãîä. Æåëàþùèå ìîãóò îçíàêîìèòüñÿ ñ íèì ïî àäðåñàì: [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ] è [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ] Áóäó ðàä, åñëè êîìó-òî ýòî ïðèãîäèòñÿ èëè ñýêîíîìèò âðåìÿ. Ïðàêòè÷åñêè âñå óïîìÿíóòûå â îáçîðå èñòî÷íèêè åñòü â ýëåêòðîííîì ïîëíîòåêñòîâîì âèäå, åñëè ïîòðåáóþòñÿ - îáðàùàéòåñü! |