#16
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"...÷òî íàðóøåíèå ìîòîðèêè ÆÏ ìîæåò áûòü ÷àñòè÷íî îáóñëîâëåíî è æåëåçîäåôèöèòíîé àíåìèåé (ïîýòîìó ó æåíùèí ñèìïòîìàòèêà è âñòðå÷àåòñÿ â 3-4 ðàçà ÷àùå)"
È ðàíüøå: Murray KP, Shin JH, Fox-Talbot MK, Johnston SM, Lipsett PA, Lillemoe KD, Pitt HA. Iron deficiency inhibits gallbladder motility Gastroenterology 1998;114:A1412. Johnston SM, Murray KP, Martin SA, Fox-Talbot MK, Lipsett PA, Lillemoe KD, Pitt HA. Iron deficiency enhances cholesterol gallstone formation. Surgery 1997;122:354–362. |
#17
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Öèòàòà:
íå ìîãëè áû Âû ñôîðìóëèðîâàòü äëÿ ìåíÿ "÷åòêèå ôóíêöèîíàëüíûå êðèòåðèè ãèïîìîòîðíîé äèñôóíêöèè æåë÷íîãî ïóçûðÿ"? ß ëåéñòâèòåëüíî íå ñîâñåì ïîíèìàþ, ÷òî òàêîå "ãèïîìîòîðíàÿ äèñôóíêöèÿ" ñ íîðìàëüíîé ôðàêöèåé âûáðîñà, è êàê îíà äîëæíà ïðîÿâëÿòüñÿ êëèíè÷åñêè, è, ãëàâíîå, êàê îñóùåñòâëÿòü äèôôåðåíöèàöèþ ñ äðóãèìè ôîðìàìè (?) äèñôóíêöèè. |
#18
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Äèñôóíêöèÿ æåë÷íîãî ïóçûðÿ(ÆÏ) - ìîòîðíîå ðàññòðîéñòâî ÆÏ.êîòîðîå ÊËÈÍÈ×ÅÑÊÈ ìàíèôåñòèðóåò áèëèàðíûìè áîëÿìè,êàê ñëåäñòâå ëþáîãî èç íà÷àëüíûõ ìåòàáîëè÷åñêèõ íàðóøåíèé ...èëè íàðóøåíèÿ ìîòîðèêè ÆÏ èëè ïðè îòñóòñòâèè ,ïî êðàéíåé ìåðå,âíà÷àëå ëþáîãî îòêëîíåíèÿ ñîñòàâà æåë÷è.
Êðèòåðèè ... èõ 3, îäèí èç íèõ Ô ìåíåå 40% ïî òåñòó ñ õîëåöèñòîêèíèíîì è åùå ... + ÒÅÐÏÀÅÂÒÈ×ÅÑÊÈÉ îòâåò ñ îòñóòñòâèåì ðåöèäèâà â òå÷åíèå áîëåå ÷åñ 12 ìåñ ïîñëå õîëåöèñòêýòîìèè. Ýòî 3 Ðèìñêèå êðèòåðèè... Ìû ó ñåáÿ(íàâåðíîå.ê ñîæàëåíèþ) ïîëüçóåìñÿ ýòèì "Äëÿ óòî÷íåíèÿ õàðàêòåðà äèñêèíåòè÷åñêèõ ðàññòðîéñòâ æåë÷íîãî ïóçûðÿ ñ ïîìîùüþ ÓÇÈ èññëåäóþò åãî îáúåì íàòîùàê è ïîñëå æåë÷åãîííîãî çàâòðàêà. Ìîòîðíî-ýâàêóàòîðíàÿ ôóíêöèÿ æåë÷íîãî ïóçûðÿ ñ÷èòàåòñÿ íîðìàëüíîé, åñëè åãî îáúåì ê 30 - 40-é ìèíóòå óìåíüøàåòñÿ íà 1/3-1/2 îò ïåðâîíà÷àëüíîãî.  êà÷åñòâå æåë÷åãîííîãî çàâòðàêà èñïîëüçóþò 20 ã ñîðáèòà ñî 100 ìë âîäû èëè âíóòðèâåííîå ââåäåíèå õîëåöèñòîêèíèíà â äîçå 20 ìã/ êã. " Äðóãîãî ìåòîäà ó íàñ íåò (õîëåöèñòîêèíèíà íåò) Ïîòîìó è ñêëîíÿëèñü ê öèôðå 50%. Âîçìîæíî òàêîé ïîäõîä òðåáóåò ïåðåñìîòðà. Íî, ðàáîòû ïî óñïåøíîìó õèðóðãè÷åñêîìó ëå÷åíèþ ãèïîêèíåçèè èäóò îò õèðóðãîâ. Òàê ñêàæåì,ñòîðîíà "çàèíòåðåñîâàííàÿ"... Õîòåëîñü áû ïîñìîòðåòü, ÷òî íà ýòó òåìó ãîâîðÿò ãàñòðîýíòåðîëîãè(ïðàâäà,îäíà ññûëêà óæå äàíà) è âñå æå... ÂÎ -âòîðûõ, æåë÷åãîííûå ïðåïàðàòû - õîëåêèíåòèêè - ññûëêè íà èõ íåýôôåêòèâíîñòü! |
#19
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Ìåíÿ âîîáùå óñòðàøàåò ýòà òåìà. Íè÷åãî íå ïîíèìàþ. Ôðàêöèÿ âûáðîñà æåë÷íîãî ïóçûðÿ - ñèëà! Íå õâàòàåò åùå ëîêàëüíîé ñîêðàòèìîñòè, äèàñòîëè÷åñêîé ôóíêöèè è âñÿêîãî òàêîãî
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#21
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Öèòàòà:
À ïî ïîâîäó õîëåöèñòåêòîìèè, êàê ìåòîäà ëå÷åíèÿ - åñòü Êîêðàíîâñêèé îáçîð [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ] |
#22
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À êàê âñå æå ñ äóîäåíàëüíîé ãèïåðòåíçèåé?
Ññûëêà, ëþáåçíî ïðåäîñòàâëåííàÿ Locot, âåäåò íà ñàéò, ñîçäàííûé ïðè ïîääåðæêå Ñîëâåé ôàðìà. Íåîæèäàííî ïðåïàðàòàìè âûáîðà â ëå÷åíèè îïèñàííîé íà ñàéòå äóîäåíàëüíîé ãèïåðòåíçèè îêàçûâàþòñÿ ìåáåâåðèí è êðåîí ïðîèçâîäñòâà òîé ñàìîé Ñîëâåé ôàðìà. Äà è ñàìà ñòàòüÿ...Ïîñìîòðèòå âûâîäû â êîíöå: "Êóïè Äþñïàòàëèí, èíà÷å äóîäåíàëüíàÿ ãèïåðòåíçèÿ óáüåò òåáÿ". Ìîæíî ÷òî-íèòü íîðìàëüíîå â îáîñíîâàíèå? P.S. Ó íàñ ÷àñòî òåîðèè ïðÿìî âåäóò ê ïðàêòè÷åñêèì äåéñòâèÿì, ÷òî íåäîïóñòèìî, êàê áû ñèìïàòè÷íà íè áûëà òåîðèÿ. ß çíàë îäíîãî äîêòîðà, êîòîðûé ìåòîä âîññòàíîâëåíèÿ ÆÊÒ âî âðåìÿ ðåçåêöèè æåëóäêà âûáèðàë ñ ó÷åòîì "ïðèçíàêîâ äóîäåíîñòàçà". Êàê âû äóìàåòå, êîëëåãè, ÷òî îòíîñèëîñü ê òàêèì ïðèçíàêàì?
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Èëþõèí Åâãåíèé Àðêàäüåâè÷ |
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#23
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Öèòàòà:
V = (ï * Ä * Í)/4 * Ê ãäå ï - ÷èñëî "ïè"; Ä - ìàêñèìàëüíûé ïîïåðå÷íèê æåë÷íîãî ïóçûðÿ; Í - ìàêñèìàëüíûé äëèííèê æåë÷íîãî ïóçûðÿ; Ê - "...ïîïðàâî÷íûé êîýôôèöèåíò, âåëè÷èíà êîòîðîãî áûëà óñòàíîâëåíà îïûòíûì ïóòåì è ðàâíûé 0,62 - 0,71..." |
#24
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Öèòàòà:
Laparoscopic cholecystectomy remains the treatment of choice for GBD as determined by CCK cholescintigraphy. Although not extensively studied, pharmacotherapy— including motility drugs or ursodeoxycholic acid—has not been shown to aid long-term relief. Relief of symptoms after cholecystectomy has been reported in most adult patients [ 8–13 ]. A recent meta-analysis in adults demonstrated that laparoscopic cholecystectomy resulted in 98% symptom relief, compared with 32% in the nonoperative arm. [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ] --- õîòÿ èìåþòñÿ ïðîñòðàííûå ðàññóæäåíèÿ, êàê òåîðåòè÷åñêè ýòî äîëæíî ïîìîãàòü, íàïð.: Dig Dis Sci. 2001 May;46(5):939-44. Mechanisms of cisapride affecting gallbladder motility. von Kiedrowski R, Huijghebaert S, Raedsch R.
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Èñêðåííå, Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷. |
#25
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#26
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Äà ïëþñ (â ñîîáùåíèè 13 è çäåñü) ïðåïàðàòû õîëåâîé êèñëîòû è ÍÏÂÑ.
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Èñêðåííå, Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷. |
#27
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Íàñêîëüêî ÿ ïîíÿë, ïðåïàðàòû õîëåâîé êèñëîòû îòíîñÿò ê cholagogues - ïðèâû÷íûì íàøåìó óõó æåë÷åãîííûì. È, íàâåðíîå, òóäà æå íóæíî îòíåñòè îãðîìíîå êîëè÷åñòâî ïîïóëÿðíûõ ðàñòèòåëüíûõ æåë÷åãîííûõ. ÈÌÕÎ, åñòü ïîïóëÿöèÿ ëþäåé (ìîëîäûõ ëþäåé), êîòîðûå èñïûòûâàþò îáëåã÷åíèå ïîñëå ïðèåìà ðàñòèòåëüíûõ æåë÷åãîííûõ ïðè áîëÿõ â âåðõíåé ÷àñòè æèâîòà. Íà èõ ôîíå âñåãäà åñòü ñóáúåêòû ñ ÿçâåííîé äèñïåïñèåé, êîòîðûì îò ýòèõ ïðåïàðàòîâ ñîîòâåòñòâåííî ñòàíîâèòñÿ õóæå. Ýòè ãðóïïû î÷åíü çàìåòíî ðàçäåëÿþòñÿ. Ñåé÷àñ ïîøàðèë ïî mdconsult è íè÷åãî âíÿòíîãî ïî ïîâîäó ðàñòèòåëüíûõ cholagogues íå íàøåë. Ñòðàííî. Êîëëåãà locot íå ýòè ëè æåë÷åãîííûå èìåë â âèäó?
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#28
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Âîò êàêèå ìåõàíèçìû îïèñàíû ïðè ïðèåìå óðñîäåçîêñèõîëåâîé:
Ursodeoxycholic acid (UDCA) exerts its beneficial effects in various cholestatic disorders mainly at the level of hepatocytes and cholangiocytes: UDCA stimulates impaired hepatocyte secretion by mostly post-transcriptional mechanisms, which include enhanced synthesis, targeting and membrane insertion of transporters; UDCA exerts antiapoptotic effects in hepatocytes at the level of the mitochondria; DCA might protect cholangiocytes against the toxic effects of endogenous bile acids by rendering bile less toxic and modifying micelle formation, rather than by direct membrane effects; UDCA might stimulate impaired cholangiocellular secretion of chloride and bicarbonate anions, by transcriptional and post-transcriptional mechanisms --- Nat Clin Pract Gastroenterol Hepatol. 2006 Jun;3(6):318-28. Drug insight: Mechanisms and sites of action of ursodeoxycholic acid in cholestasis. Òî åñòü óñèëèâàåò æåë÷åîòäåëåíèå, íî íå âëèÿåò íà îïîðîæíåíèå æåë÷íîãî ïóçûðÿ...
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Èñêðåííå, Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷. |
#29
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Íó òàê, à åñëè îòäåëüíàÿ ãðóïïà õîëåêèíåòèêîâ (Cholagogues) ñóùåñòâóåò, òî ÷òî æå âõîäèò â ýòó ãðóïïó? È çà÷åì îíè íóæíû?
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#30
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Óâàæàåìûå êîëëåãè! Î÷åíü ïðèçíàòåëåí Âàì çà ðàçâåðíóâøóþñÿ äèñêóññèþ.
Èòàê, 1/LupusDoc(ó) - âñå-òàêè õîòåëîñü áû ïîëó÷èòü êîíñåðâàòèâíóþ "àëüòåðíàòèâó" õîëåöèñòýêòîìèè ïðè ãèïîêèíåçèè æåë÷íîãî ïóçûðÿ. Âû ñ ýòèì äèàãíîçîì êîãî-òî íàïðàâëÿëè íà õîëåöèñòýêòîìèþ? Êàê ýôôåêò? Ãäå ðàáîòû ïî õîëåêèíåòèêàì? Ïóñòü îïðîâåðãàþùèå èõ ýôôåêòèâíîñòü? ×òî êàñàåòñÿ ÓÇÈ îöåíêå ôóíêöèè æåë÷íîãî ïóçûðÿ - êîíå÷íî ïðèáëèçèòåëüíî. Ïðåäëîæèòå àëüòåðíàòèâó. Ó íàñ ðàäèîèçîòîïíàÿ ëàáîðàòîðèÿ óìåðëà êàê ëåò 5-7 íàçàä. Âûáðîøó "êðàñíóþ òðÿïêó" - 6-ôðàêöèîííîå õðîìàòè÷åñêîå äóîäåíàëüíîå çîíäèðîâàíèå. Åñëè íåò íè÷åãî - îíî õóæå, ÷åì íè÷åãî? 2/Åãîðó -ïðîñòî ñïàñèáî,áåç êîììåíòàðèåâ. Èìåë ââèäó ïðîñòîé àëëîõîë! 3/Âàäèìó Âàëåðüåâè÷ó - âñå òîò æå âîïðîñ. Åñòü ëè ðàáîòû ïî õîëåêèíåòèêàì è õîëåðåòèêàì? 4/Åâãåíèþ Àðêàäüåâè÷ó - Åãîð ïèøåò"ÈÌÕÎ, åñòü ïîïóëÿöèÿ ëþäåé (ìîëîäûõ ëþäåé), êîòîðûå èñïûòûâàþò îáëåã÷åíèå ïîñëå ïðèåìà ðàñòèòåëüíûõ æåë÷åãîííûõ ïðè áîëÿõ â âåðõíåé ÷àñòè æèâîòà. Íà èõ ôîíå âñåãäà åñòü ñóáúåêòû ñ ÿçâåííîé äèñïåïñèåé, êîòîðûì îò ýòèõ ïðåïàðàòîâ ñîîòâåòñòâåííî ñòàíîâèòñÿ õóæå. Ýòè ãðóïïû î÷åíü çàìåòíî ðàçäåëÿþòñÿ." - ðå÷ü èäåò îá î÷åíü àìîðôíîé ãðóïïå ïàöèåíòîâ ñ áîëåâûìè, äèñïåïòè÷åñêèìè è èíûìè êëèíè÷åñêèìè ðàññòðîéñòâàìè â âåðõíåì ýòàæå æèâîòà, êîòîðûõ òðóäíî "óëîæèòü" â òó èëè èíóþ íîçîëîãèþ ( îñîáåííî, åñëè ïîä ðóêîé íåò íåîáõîäèìîãî íàáîðà äèàãíîñòè÷åñêèõ èíñòðóìåíòîâ). Òàê âîò íà ìîé âçãëÿä (ñóáúåêòèâíûé - ïîä÷åðêèâàþ) êëèíè÷åñêîå âûäåëåíèå "ñèíäðîìà äóîäåíàëüíîé ãèïåðòåíçèè",ýòî íå ïîâîä ê íàçíà÷åíèþ äþñïàòàëèíà è êðåîíà, ýòî ÏÎÂÎÄ äëÿ äåòàëüíîãî èññëåäîâàíèÿ äóîäåíî-ïàíêðåàòî-áèëèàðíîé çîíû è åå "ãðàíèö". È Âàì òîò æå âîïðîñ - ñêîëüêî ïàöèåíòîâ ñ ôóíêöèîíàëüíîé ãèïîêèíåçèé æåë÷íîãî ïóçûðÿ Âû ïðîîïåðèðîâàëè? Ê ñëîâó, íà îäíîé è Ãàñòðîøêîë ñòîþ â î÷åðåäè â ãàðäåðîáå.Âïåðåäè õèðóðãè îáñóæäàþò ïðîáëåìû ëå÷åíèÿ ÃÝÐÁ ( òîëüêî ÷òî ñîñòîÿëàñü ñåññèÿ ïî ýòîé ïðîáëåìå) - "âîò òåðàïåâòû, çàñòàâëÿþò áîëüíûõ ãîäàìè ïèòü ëåêàðñòâà, ïðèøëè èõ íàì è ìû ñäåëàåì ôóíäîïëèêàöèþ è âñå..."... Âñå-òàêè åùå áåãàåò êîøêà ìåæäó õèðóðãàìè è ãàñòðîýíòåðîëîãàìè... |