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Îòâåò
 
Îïöèè òåìû Ïîèñê â ýòîé òåìå Îïöèè ïðîñìîòðà
  #61  
Ñòàðûé 26.01.2002, 12:11
V.Dvorianchikov V.Dvorianchikov âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 01.08.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 2,953
V.Dvorianchikov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïëîõóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Ñïàñèáî çà èñ÷åðïûâàþùèé îòâåò ïî Ig.

Íàñ÷åò ýòè÷åñêèõ ïðîáëåì. Ìû àáñîëþòíî íå ñêðûâàåì, ÷òî ëå÷èì ÈÏÏ, è äàæå íàïðîòèâ, ïîä÷åðêèâàåì ýòî êàê äîñòîèíñòâî. Ïîëàãàþ, ïðåäëîæèòü ïàöèåíòó áåñïëàòíî ïîïûòàòü ñ÷àñòüÿ ñ "ôèçðàñòâîðîì" (âåäü, ñ ò.ç. ôàðìàêîëîãèè, ýòî - âñåãî ëèøü ôèçðàñòâîð) âìåñòî äîðîãîãî è îïàñíîãî ÀÁ-êóðñà - íå òîëüêî ýòè÷íî, íî è ãóìàííî. Ðèñêóåò îí òîëüêî âðåìåíåì, çàòî ìîæåò ñîëèäíî âûèãðàòü ïî äåíüãàì è çäîðîâüþ: íå òîêñè÷íî, â áîëüøèíñòâå ñëó÷àåâ ôîðìèðóåò äëèòåëüíûé (ñòîéêèé?) èììóíèòåò. Êðîìå òîãî, ó âàñ íàâåðíÿêà èìåþòñÿ òå, êòî íå ïîèìåë óñïåõà îò ÀÁ-òåðàïèè èëè êîìó îíà ïðîòèâîïîêàçàíà. Ïîëàãàþ, ýòî äîëæíî óñòðîèòü ìíîãèõ. Âåäü, ëå÷åíèå âïîëíå êîìôîðòíî. Êðîìå òîãî, ìîæíî ïðåäîñòàâèòü áîëüíûì âîçìîæíîñòü îòêàçàòüñÿ îò íåãî, åñëè ÷åðåç íåñêîëüêî äíåé â ìàçêàõ íå ïîÿâÿòñÿ îòìèðàþùèå ÐÒ è íå èñ÷åçíóò ÝÒ.
Ïåðåä íàìè, â îñíîâíîì, ïðîõîäèò òîò æå èíôåêöèîííûé íàáîð. Íó, åùå òðèõîìîíàäû, êîòîðûõ, êðîìå íàñ è Ñâèùåâîé, íèêòî â óïîð íå âèäèò. Îäíàêî, íà ôîíå õëàìèäèîçà äðóãèå èíôåêöèè (áóäó÷è ïîäàâëåííûìè õëàìèäèÿìè) ÷àñòî îñòàþòñÿ íå çàìå÷åííûìè è ïðè íàøåì ëå÷åíèè îáúÿâëÿþòñÿ ñðàçó ïîñëå ëèêâèäàöèè õëàìèäèîçà.
Ïðîòèâ ìèêî(óðåà)ïëàçì èìåþòñÿ ñîçäàííûå íà òåõ æå ïðèíöèïàõ M122 è Specific M2 , à ñåé÷àñ óæå Specific M3. Ïîñëåäíèé, êðîìå ïðî÷åãî, ÷àñòî ïðåäîòâðàùàåò ìàíèôåñòàöèþ òðèõîìîíàä è îáëàäàåò ðàññàñûâàþùèì äåéñòâèåì.
Èìåþòñÿ è äðóãèå ïðåïàðàòû ïðîòèâ òðèõîìîíàä è ÷àñòî ðàñöâåòàþùåãî (êàê è ïîñëå ÀÁ) êàíäèäîçà. Âïðî÷åì, ïîñëåäíèå, êàê ïðàâèëî, èñ÷åçàþò è áåç ëå÷åíèÿ, òåì áîëåå, ÷òî òðèõîìîíàäû âñå ðàâíî ðàñïîçíàíû íå áóäóò - íàéäóò òîëüêî ëåéêîöèòû, êîòîðûå áóäóò êàê áû ñàìè ïî ñåáå. Îäíàêî äîëå÷èâàíèå ïîòðåáóåò äîïîëíèòåëüíîãî âðåìåíè è íå ìàëîãî. Ýòî ðåçêî óâåëè÷èò ðàñõîäû. Íî ãëàâíîå - ìû íà äëèòåëüíûé ñðîê îñòàíåìñÿ áåç öåííîãî ñîòðóäíèêà. Ñìîãëè áû âû ñàìîñòîÿòåëüíî äîëå÷èòü òàêèõ áîëüíûõ íàøèìè ïðåïàðàòèàìè ïî àíàëîãè÷íûì ñõåìàì, ÷òîáû âîîáùå îáîéòèñü áåç ÀÁ?
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #62  
Ñòàðûé 26.01.2002, 14:27
V. ZAITSEV V. ZAITSEV âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.07.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,330
V. ZAITSEV
Ä-ð Æèâîâ.
Âûíóæäåí îòðåàãèðîâàòü íà Âàøå òîðæåñòâóþùåå âäîãîíêó.
Äà íå ñòóøåâàëñÿ ÿ ñ Âàìè ñïîðèòü. Ìíå ïðîñòî ýòî ñòàëî íåèíòåðåñíî.
Âû òðåáóåòå îò îïïîíåíòà óéìó äîêàçàòåëüñòâ, ñàìè æå äåëàåòå áåçàïåëëÿöèîííûå óòâåðæäåíèÿ òîëüêî ïîòîìó, ÷òî ïðèáëèæåíû ê çàïàäíîé öèâèëèçàöèè è ìåä. ëèòåðàòóðó ÷èòàåòå òîëüêî íà àíãëèéñêîì.
Íó, íå èçâåñòíû Âàì (èëè äîïóñòèì Âû èõ ñ÷èòàåòå íåäîñòàòî÷íûìè) ðàáîòû in vitro è in vivo ïî ïîëèðåçèñòåíòíûì øòàììàì õëàìèäèé. Áûëî áû ïîíÿòíî, åñëè Âû ñêàçàëè, ÷òî ýòî åù¸ îêîí÷àòåëüíî íå äîêàçàíî. Íî Âû æå îäíîçíà÷íî çàÿâèëè, ÷òî íåèçëå÷èìûõ ñ ïîìîùüþ àíòèáèîòèêîâ ôîðì õëàìèäèîçà ÍÅ ÑÓÙÅÑÒÂÓÅÒ. À ýòî Âàøå óòâåðæäåíèå íàäî ïðèíèìàòü áåç âñÿêèõ äîêàçàòåëüñòâ? Èëè, äàæå åñëè ñîãëàñèòüñÿ, ÷òî âñÿêèõ òàì ýêñïåðèìåíòîâ íà ìûøàõ è, êàê Âû èõ îáîçâàëè, ïîëóýêñïåðèìåíòàëüíûõ êëèíè÷åñêèõ ðàáîò ñ ÈÔÍ íåäîñòàòî÷íî äëÿ îêîí÷àòåëüíûõ âûâîäîâ, òî îáðàòíîå óòâåðæäåíèå, ÷òî «íèêàêèå èíäóêòîðû èíòåðôåðîíà ÍÈÊÀÊÈÌ ÄÅÉÑÒÂÈÅÌ íà õëàìèäèè íå îáëàäàþò» âîîáùå íèêàêèõ äîêàçàòåëüñòâ íå òðåáóåò??? Èëè Âû äîëãî è óïîðíî ðàáîòàëè ñ ÈÔÍ è, íàêîíåö, óáåäèëèñü, ÷òî õëàìèäèÿì îò íåãî íè õîëîäíî íè æàðêî? Òàê æå êàê îò ýíçèìîòåðàïèè. Ä-ð Æèâîâ ñêàçàë, êàê îòðóáèë: «ÿ âîîáùå î÷åíü êàòåãîðè÷íî ìîãó ñêàçàòü, ÷òî íèêàêîé ñèñòåìíîé ýíçèìîòåðàïèè âîîáùå íåò» - êàêèå òóò åù¸ íóæíû ïîäòâåðæäåíèÿ, îí â ýòîì óâåðåí.
Ïîòîì ïåðåä¸ðãèâàíèå ôàêòîâ: ïðîäóêöèÿ äîâîëüíî èçâåñòíûõ ôèðì, çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííàÿ ïî÷òè âî âñåõ âåäóùèõ ñòðàíàõ ìèðà, íåîäíîêðàòíî, ê ñëîâó ãîâîðÿ, èñïûòàííàÿ «â äâîéíûõ ñëåïûõ», îêàçûâàåòñÿ «âûïóñêàåòñÿ ñïåöèàëüíî äëÿ Ðîññèè è Àôðèêè». È, êîíå÷íî, ó ä-ðà Æèâîâà åñòü íåîïðîâåðæèìûå äîêàçàòåëüñòâà ñòîëü ïå÷àëüíîãî ôàêòà. Èëè îïÿòü òàêè ëè÷íîå ìíåíèå ä-ðà Æèâîâà ñòîëü àâòîðèòåòíî, ÷òî êàêèõ òàì åù¸ äîêàçàòåëüñòâà?
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #63  
Ñòàðûé 26.01.2002, 17:28
Zhivov Zhivov âíå ôîðóìà
Âåòåðàí ôîðóìà
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 20.08.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,792
Zhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Wellcome back ã-í Çàéöåâ!

Íó ÷òîæ î÷åíü õîðîøî, ÷òî Âû âñå æå ðåøèëè ïðîäîëæèòü. Õî÷ó Âàì ñîîáùèòü, ÷òî ÿ áåçàïåëëÿöèîííûõ óòâåðæäåíèé ñòàðàþñü íå äåëàòü.
1. Ïîëèðåçèñòåíòíîñòü õëàìèäèé.
Ãîòîâÿñü ê ñúåçäó ðîññèéñêèõ àíäðîëîãîâ â ã. Êèñëîâîäñêå â àïðåëå 2001 ã. ÿ ïðîâåë îáøèðíûé àíàëèç ëèòåðàòóðû ïî ðåçèñòåíòíîñòè õëàìèäèé ê àíòèáèîòèêàì è íàøåë ñëåäóþùåå. Ñ 1960 ïî 2001 ã. â medline íå áûëî ñîîáùåíî ÷òîáû õëàìèäèè áûëè óñòîé÷èâû êî âñåì èçâåñòíûì àíòèáèîòèêàì. Çà ïîñëåäíèå 13 ëåò â ÑØÀ áûëî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàíî 3 èëè 4 ñëó÷àÿ íå÷óâñòâèòåëüíîñòè õëàìèäèé ê äîêñèöèêëèíó, åùå 2-3 â Åâðîïå. Ýòî æå ìíåíèå ïîäòâåðäèë âûñòóïàâøèé òàì æå â Êèñëîâîäñêå ïðîô. Ìèêðîáèîëîãèè Ë.Ñ. Ñòðà÷óíñêèé. ß íè÷åãî íå âûäóìàë è ïîâòîðÿþ, ÷òî íåèçëå÷èìûõ ñ ïîìîùüþ àíòèáèîòèêîâ ôîðì õëàìèäèîçà ÍÅ ÑÓÙÅÑÒÂÓÅÒ. ß áóäó î÷åíü ïðèçíàòåëåí Âàì èëè êîìó òî åùå, åñëè óäàñòñÿ íàéòè ñîîáùåíèÿ èç êîìïåòåíòíûõ èñòî÷íèêîâ, ñåðüåçíûå ðàáîòû, ãîâîðÿùèå îá îáðàòíîì. Âû òàêèõ äàííûõ ïîêà íå ïðåäñòàâèëè.

2. Ïî ïîâîäó óòâåðæäåíèÿ ÷òî «íèêàêèå èíäóêòîðû èíòåðôåðîíà ÍÈÊÀÊÈÌ ÄÅÉÑÒÂÈÅÌ íà õëàìèäèè íå îáëàäàþò» ÿ áû ñîãëàñèëñÿ, ÷òî îíî âîçìîæíî ñëèøêîì êàòåãîðè÷íî. ß áû îñòàíîâèëñÿ íà òîì, ÷òî ïðåèìóùåñòâà ïðèìåíåíèÿ ÈÔÍ ñàìîñòîòåëüíî èëè â êîìïëåêñå ñ àíòèáèîòèêàìè ïî ñðàâíåíèþ ñ ïðîñòîé àíòèáèîòèêîòåðàïèåé õëàìèäèîçà íå äîêàçàíî è íå ñóùåñòâóåò ðåêîìåíäàöèé ïðèìåíåíèÿ ÈÔÍ è ëþáûõ äðóãèõ èììóíîêîððåêòîðîâ ïðè õëàìèäèîçå êàê ñòàíäàðòíîãî ìåòîäà ëå÷åíèÿ. ß îïÿòü æå áóäó ïðèçíàòåëåí, åñëè Âû ïðèâåäåòå äðóãèå äàííûå èç ó÷åáíèêîâ, ìîíîãðàôèé è ðóêîâîäñòâ ÂÎÇ, NIH è ò.ï. î ÷åì ÿ óæå Âàñ ïðîñèë.

3. Ïî ïîâîäó "ñîëèäíûõ ôàðìêîìïàíèé" è èõ ïðîäóêöèè. Âû çíàåòå, ïðîèçâîäèòåëÿìè âîáýíçèìà è ãåíòîñà â ÑØÀ, íàïðèìåð, íå ïàõíåò.  Çàïàäíîé Åâðîïå, íàñêîëüêî ìíå èçâåñòíî, ìåñòî èõ ïðîäóêöèè òîëüêî â áåçðåöåïòóðíûõ îòäåëàõ àïòåê. À âîò ñ äâîéíûìè ñëåïûìè Âû òóò ÿâíî îøèáàåòåñü. ß íå âñòðå÷àë â äîñòóïíîé ìíå ëèòåðàòóðå, à òàêæå òàê è íå ñìîã äîáèòüñÿ îò ïðåäñòàâèòåëåé "óâàæàåìîé" ôàðìêîìïàíèè Mucos Pharma íèêàêèõ äàííûõ î êàêèõ ëèáî ðàíäîìèçèðîâàííûõ äâîéíûõ ñëåïûõ ïëàöåáî êîíòðîëèðóåìûõ èññëåäîâàíèé (ÐÄÑÏÊÈ) èõ ïðîäóêöèè (âîáýíçèì, ôëîãåíçèì), òàêæå íåò äàííûõ è ïî ôàðìàêîêèíåòèêå/ôàðàìàêîäèíàìèêå ýòèõ ïðåïàðàòîâ. Ïîýòîìó ÿ ìîãó ïîâòîðíî óòâåðæäàòü, ÷òî íèêàêîé ñèñòåìíîé ýíçèìîòåðàïèè íå ñóùåñòâóåò. Íèêàêèõ ÐÄÑÏÊÈ ÿ óâåðåí íå ïðîâîäèëè è ïðîèçâîäèòåëè Ãåíòîñà, ïðîñòàòèëåíà, èììóíîôàíà, öèêëîôåðîíà è ò.ä. è ò.ï. Ïî÷åìó óâåðåí? Ïîòîìó ÷òî ñêîëüêî ÿ èõ îá ýòîì íå ïðîñèë, îíè òàêèõ äàííûõ ìíå íå ïðåäîñòàâèëè.  äîñòóïíîé ìíå ëèòåðàòóðå ÿ èõ òî æå íå âñòðå÷àë. À ó Âàñ åñòü äðóãàÿ èíôîðìàöèÿ? Áóäó ðàä åñëè Âû åé ïîäåëèòåñü.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #64  
Ñòàðûé 26.01.2002, 18:24
V. ZAITSEV V. ZAITSEV âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.07.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,330
V. ZAITSEV
×òî æ, ñíà÷àëà ïî òðåòüåìó ïóíêòó, ÷òî íèêàêèõ äàííûõ ïî ÐÄÑÏÊÈ.
Îñòàëüíîå ïîòîì. Õî÷ó ïîñìîòðåòü íà ðåàêöèþ ïî ýòîìó ïóíêòó.

Most of the studies described in this section used combination products containing various proteolytic enzymes plus other substances, such as the bioflavonoid rutin.
Sports Injuries
A double-blind placebo-controlled study of 44 individuals with sports-related ankle injuries found that treatment with proteolytic enzymes resulted in faster healing and reduced the time away from training by about 50%.17 Three other small double-blind studies, involving a total of about 80 athletes, found that treatment with proteolytic enzymes significantly speeded healing of bruises and other mild athletic injuries as compared to placebo.18,19,20 In another double-blind trial, 100 individuals were given an injection of their own blood under the skin to simulate bruising following an injury. Researchers found that treatment with a proteolytic enzyme combination significantly speeded up recovery.21
A double-blind placebo-controlled trial of 71 individuals with finger fractures found that treatment with proteolytic enzymes significantly improved recovery.22
Surgery
Numerous studies have evaluated various proteolytic enzymes as an aid to recovery from surgery, but the results have been mixed.
A double-blind placebo-controlled trial of 80 individuals undergoing knee surgery found that treatment with mixed proteolytic enzymes after surgery significantly improved rate of recovery, as measured by mobility and swelling.23
Another double-blind placebo-controlled trial evaluated the effects of a similar mixed proteolytic enzyme product in 80 individuals undergoing oral surgery.24 The results showed reduced pain, inflammation, and swelling in the treated group as compared to the placebo group. Benefits were also seen in another trial of mixed proteolytic enzymes for dental surgery,36 as well as in one study involving only bromelain.13
A double-blind placebo-controlled study of 204 women receiving episiotomies after childbirth found evidence that a mixed proteolytic enzyme product can reduce inflammation.37 Bromelain was also found effective for reducing inflammation following episiotomy in one double-blind placebo-controlled trial of 160 women,11 but a very similar study found no benefit.38
Other double-blind placebo-controlled studies have found bromelain effective in nasal surgery,25 cataract removal,12 and foot surgery.39 However, a study of 154 individuals undergoing facial plastic surgery found no benefit.40
Osteoarthritis and Other Forms of Chronic Musculoskeletal Pain
Several studies provide preliminary evidence that proteolytic enzymes might be helpful for various forms of chronic pain, including osteoarthritis, back pain, neck pain, and shoulder pain.
For example, a double-blind placebo-controlled trial of 30 individuals with chronic neck pain found that use of a proteolytic enzyme mixture modestly reduced pain symptoms as compared to placebo.41
Other studies enrolling a total of more than 300 individuals compared proteolytic enzymes to the standard anti-inflammatory drug diclofenac for the treatment of shoulder arthritis, back pain and knee arthritis. 42-43 The results showed equivalent benefits.
Bruises
In a controlled study, 74 boxers with bruises on their faces and upper bodies were given bromelain until all signs of bruising had disappeared;26 another 72 boxers were given placebo. Fifty-eight of the group taking bromelain lost all signs of bruising within 4 days, compared to only 10 of the group taking placebo. Unfortunately, this study was apparently not double-blind, meaning that some of its results may have been due to the power of suggestion.
Other studies have found similar benefits.27,28,29 However, not all studies have had positive results.30,31
Shingles (Herpes Zoster)
Herpes zoster (shingles) is an acute, painful infection caused by the varicella-zoster virus, the organism that causes chicken pox. There is some evidence that proteolytic enzymes may be helpful for the initial attack of shingles, for reasons that aren't clear.
A double-blind study of 190 people with shingles compared proteolytic enzymes to the standard antiviral drug acyclovir.32 Participants were treated for 14 days and their pain was assessed at intervals. Although both groups had similar pain relief, the enzyme-treated group experienced fewer side effects.
Similar results were seen in another double-blind study in which 90 individuals were given either an injection of acyclovir or enzymes, followed by a course of oral medication for 7 days.33

1. Kleveland PM, Johannessen T, Kristensen P, et al. Effect of pancreatic enzymes in non-ulcer dyspepsia. A pilot study. Scand J Gastroenterol. 1990;25:298–301.
2. Taussig SJ, Batkin S. Bromelain, the enzyme complex of pineapple (Ananas comosus) and its clinical application. An update. J Ethnopharmacol . 1988;22:191-203
3. Zuschlag JM. Double-blind clinical study using certain proteolytic enzyme mixtures in karate fighters. Working paper. Mucos Pharma GmbH (Germany).1988;1–5.
4. Baumuller M. The application of hydrolytic enzymes in blunt wounds to the soft tissue and distortion of the ankle joint: a double-blind clinical trial [translated from German]. Allgemeinmedizin. 1990;19:178–182.
5. Rathgeber WF. The use of proteolytic enzymes (Chymoral) in sporting injuries. S Afr Med J. 1971;45:181–183.
6. Shaw PC. The use of a trypsin-chymotrypsin formulation in fractures of the hand. Br J Clin Pract. 1969;23:25–26.
7. Deitrick RE. Oral proteolytic enzymes in the treatment of athletic injuries: a double-blind study. Pa Med. 1965;68:35–37.
8. Rahn HD. Efficacy of hydorlytic enzymes in surgery. Paper presented at: 24th FIMS World Congress of Sports Medicine; May 27–June 1, 1990; Amsterdam.
9. Vinzenz K. Treatment of edema with hydrolytic enzymes in oral surgical procedures [translated from German]. Quintessenz. 1991;42:1053–1064.
10. Seltzer AP. Minimizing post-operative edema and ecchymoses by the use of an oral enzyme preparation (bromelain): a controlled study of 53 rhinoplasty cases. Eye Ear Nose Throat Mon. 1962;41:813–817.
11. Zatuchni GI, Colombi DJ. Bromelains therapy for the prevention of episiotomy pain. Obstet Gynecol. 1967;29:275–278.
12. Spaeth GL. The effect of bromelains on the inflammatory response caused by cataract extraction: a double-blind study. Eye Ear Nose Throat Mon. 1968;47:634–639.
13. Tassman GC, Zafran JN, Zayon GM. Evaluation of a plant proteolytic enzyme for the control of imflammation and pain. J Dent Med. 1964;19:73–77.
14. Blonstein JL. Control of swelling in boxing injuries. Practitioner. 1969;203:206.
15. Billigmann VP. Enzyme therapy—an alternative in treatment of herpes zoster. A controlled study of 192 patients [translated from German]. Fortschr Med. 1995;113:43–48.
16. Kleine MW, Stauder GM, Beese EW. The intestinal absorption of orally administered hydrolytic enzymes and their effects in the treatment of acute herpes zoster as compared with those of oral acyclovir therapy. Phytomedicine. 1995;2:7–15.
17. Baumuller M. The application of hydrolytic enzymes in blunt wounds to the soft tissue and distortion of the ankle joint: a double-blind clinical trial [translated from German]. Allgemeinmedizin. 1990;19:178–182.
18. Zuschlag JM. Double-blind clinical study using certain proteolytic enzyme mixtures in karate fighters. Working paper. Mucos Pharma GmbH (Germany). 1988;1–5.
19. Rathgeber WF. The use of proteolytic enzymes (Chymoral) in sporting injuries. S Afr Med J. 1971;45:181–183.
20. Deitrick RE. Oral proteolytic enzymes in the treatment of athletic injuries: a double-blind study. Pa Med. 1965;68:35–37.
21. Kleine MW, Pabst H. The effect of an oral enzyme therapy on experimentally produced hematomas [translated from German]. Forum des Prakt und Allgemeinarztes. 1988;27:42, 45–46, 48.
22. Shaw PC. The use of a trypsin-chymotrypsin formulation in fractures of the hand. Br J Clin Pract. 1969;23:25–26.
23. Rahn HD. Efficacy of hydorlytic enzymes in surgery. Paper presented at: 24th FIMS World Congress of Sports Medicine; May 27-June 1, 1990; Amsterdam.
24. Vinzenz K. Treatment of edema with hydrolytic enzymes in oral surgical procedures [translated from German]. Quintessenz. 1991;42:1053–1064.
25. Seltzer AP. Minimizing post-operative edema and ecchymoses by the use of an oral enzyme preparation (bromelain): a controlled study of 53 rhinoplasty cases. Eye Ear Nose Throat Mon. 1962;41:813–817.
26. Blonstein JL. Control of swelling in boxing injuries. Practitioner. 1969;203:206. 26. Zatuchni GI, Colombi DJ. Bromelains therapy for the prevention of episiotomy pain. Obstet Gynecol. 1967;29:275–278.
27. Zatuchni GI, Colombi DJ. Bromelains therapy for the prevention of episiotomy pain. Obstet Gynecol. 1967;29:275-278.
28. Spaeth GL. The effect of bromelains on the inflammatory response caused by cataract extraction: a double-blind study. Eye Ear Nose Throat Mon. 1968;47:634–639.
29. Tassman GC, Zafran JN, Zayon GM. Evaluation of a plant proteolytic enzyme for the control of imflammation and pain. J Dent Med. 1964;19:73–77.
30. Howat RC, Lewis GD. The effect of bromelain therapy on episiotomy wounds—a double-blind controlled clinical trial. J Obstet Gynaecol Br Commonw. 1972;79:951–953.
31. Gylling U, Rintala A, Taipale S, et al. The effect of a proteolytic enzyme combinate (bromelain) on the postoperative oedema by oral application. A clinical and experimental study. Acta Chir Scand. 1966;131:193–196.
32. Billigmann VP. Enzyme therapy—an alternative in treatment of herpes zoster. A controlled study of 192 patients [translated from German]. Fortschr Med. 1995;113:43–48.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #65  
Ñòàðûé 26.01.2002, 18:34
V. ZAITSEV V. ZAITSEV âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.07.2001
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V. ZAITSEV
Äà, áûëî áû æåëàòåëüíî, ÷òîáû óòâåðæäåíèÿ îïïîíåíòîâ òîæå áûëè íåãîëîñëîâíû.
Ó ìåíÿ, íàïðèìåð, äðóãèå äàííûå è ïî êîëè÷åñòâó çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûõ ñëó÷àåâ «íå÷óâñòâèòåëüíîñòè õëàìèäèé ê äîêñèöèêëèíó» è ïî ýíçèìîòåðàïèè â ÑØÀ è äð.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #66  
Ñòàðûé 27.01.2002, 01:17
Zhivov Zhivov âíå ôîðóìà
Âåòåðàí ôîðóìà
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 20.08.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,792
Zhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Ñïàñèáî Âàì áîëüøîå ã-í Çàéöåâ çà ïðîäåëàííóþ ðàáîòó è Âàøå âðåìÿ, ÷ ïðèçíàòüñÿ ìíîãèõ ïðèâåäåííûõ âàìè ïóáëèêàöèé íå âèäåë ðàíüøå. Ïðèâåäåííûå Âàìè ïóáëèêàöèè îòíîñÿùèå ê ñèñòåìíîé ýíçèìîòåðàïèè îòíîñÿòñÿ â ïîäàâëÿþùåì áîëüøèíñòâå ê ñïîðòèâíîé ìåäèöèíå, ãäå òðàäèöèîííî ïîçèöèè evidence based medicine íå ñòîëü ñèëüíû ïî ñàìûì ðàçíûì ïðè÷èíàì. Âûáîðêè ïðàêòè÷åñêè âî âñåõ ñòàòüÿõ ìàëåíüêèå è êîíå÷íî õîòåëîñü áû âçãëÿíóòü íà äèçàéí ýòèõ èññëåäîâàíèé. À ÷òî ïîñëå 1995 ã. Âû áîëüøå ïóáëèêàöèé ïî äàííîé òåìàòèêå íå âñòðå÷àëè? È êàê Âû îòíîñèòåñü ê òîìó, ÷òî ýòó ñàìóþ "ñèñòåìíóþ ýíçèìîòåðàïèþ" ïûòàþòñÿ ðàñïðîñòðàíèòü ÷óòü ëè íå íà âñå îòðàñëè ìåäèöèíû? ß îïÿòü æå íå çíàþ íè îäíîé ïóáëèêàöèè î ÐÄÑÏÊÈ ñ âîáýíçèìîì â óðîëîãèè. Ìîæåò Âû çíàåòå?  çàêëþ÷åíèè ëèøü ñêàæó, ÷òî ïî ìîåìó ìíåíèþ ëþáàÿ òåðàïèÿ ìîæåò ñ÷èòàòüñÿ ñóùåñòâóþùåé, êîãäà îíà âíåäðåíà â ñòàíäàðòíîå ïðèìåíåíèå â òåõ èëè èíûõ îòðàñëÿõ ìåäèöèíû. Äî ýòèõ ïîð - ýòî ýêñïåðèìåíòàëüíûé èëè èçó÷àåìûé ìåòîä ëå÷åíèÿ. Íå áîëåå òîãî.

Ê ðåçèñòåíòíîñòè õëàìèäèé.

Infect Dis Clin North Am 1997 Dec;11(4):889-903 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


The impact of antimicrobial resistance on the treatment of sexually transmitted diseases.

Erbelding E, Quinn TC.

Division of Infectious Diseases, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, Maryland, USA.

The focus of this article is to review the development of antimicrobial resistance among several sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) and to discuss the frequency and mechanisms of resistance and recommendations for treatment of selected STDs in which resistance to certain antimicrobial agents has increased. For a number of STDs, such as Chlamydia trachomatis and syphilis, no evidence of antimicrobial resistance has developed over the years
, although management of these diseases, such as in the case of pelvic inflammatory disease or syphilis in HIV-infected individuals, requires intensive treatment and follow-up to ensure effectiveness of treatment.

Ýòî ëèøü îäèí ïðèìåð. ß ïîòîì áåçóñëîâíî ïðåäîñòàâëþ âàì áîëüøå ññûëîê è àðãóìåíòîâ


Òåïåðü æå âûíóæäåí èçâèíèòüñÿ ïåðåä Âàìè, ò.ê. áóäó îòñóòñòâîâàòü âñþ ñëåäóþóùóþ íåäåëþ â ñòðàíå è ââèäó çàíÿòîñòè âðÿä ëè ñìîãó ïðîñìàòðèâàòü ðóñìåäñåðâåð.  äàëüíåéøåì ñ óäîâîëüñâèåì ïðîäîëæó ýòó äèñêóññèþ. Äî âñòðå÷è
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #67  
Ñòàðûé 27.01.2002, 02:48
V. ZAITSEV V. ZAITSEV âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 25.07.2001
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V. ZAITSEV
Àëåêñåé Âèêòîðîâè÷!
Ïî÷åìó æå «ïîäàâëÿþùåì áîëüøèíñòâå ê ñïîðòèâíîé ìåäèöèíå»?
Äîñòàòî÷íî áîëüøèå âûáîðêè (ñîòíè ïàöèåíòîâ) - ïîñëå ðîäîâûå âîñïàëèòåëüíûå ïðîöåññû, õèðóðãèÿ, ãåðïåñ (îïîÿñûâàþùèé ëèøàé) è äð. Åñëè çàíÿòüñÿ ïîèñêîì ìîæíî, ïî-âèäèìîìó, íàéòè è áîëåå ïîçäíèå (ïîñëå 1995 ã.) ðàáîòû, ïî êëèíè÷åñêèì èñïûòàíèÿì ýíçèìîòåðàïèè.
Ïî õëàìèäèÿì ìîæíî äàòü âûäåðæêó èç ìîíîãðàôèè «Õëàìèäèîç», ñîñòàâëåííóþ ñîòðóäíèêàìè ÍÈÈ ôèçèêî-õèìè÷åñêîé ìåäèöèíû ÌÇ ÐÔ, ÍÈÈ àêóøåðñòâà è ãèíåêîëîãèè ÐÀÌÍ.
«Ïî íàøåìó ìíåíèþ ïðèìåíåíèå ïîëèôåðìåíòíûõ ïðåïàðàòîâ ýôôåêòèâíî äîïîëíÿåò ýòèîòðîïíóþ òåðàïèþ. ………………………………………..
Ïðèìåíåíèå Âîáýíçèìà è Ôëîãýíçèìà ïðèâîäèò ê óìåíüøåíèþ èíôèëüòðàöèè ïëàçìàòè÷åñêèìè áåëêàìè èíòåðñòèöèÿ, óâåëè÷åíèþ ýâàêóàöèè áåëêîâîãî äåòðèòà è äåïîçèòîâ ôèáðèíà â çîíå âîñïàëåíèÿ, ÷òî îáåñïå÷èâàåò âîññòàíîâëåíèå ìèêðîöèðêóëÿöèè, óòèëèçàöèþ ïðîäóêòîâ âîñïàëåíèÿ, îêñèãåíàöèþ è òðîôèêó òêàíåé, ïîÿâëåíèå àíàëüãåçèðóþùåãî ýôôåêòà. Ôåðìåíòû ñïîñîáñòâóþò ôèçèîëîãè÷åñêîìó õîäó âîñïàëèòåëüíîãî ïðîöåññà, ïðåäóïðåæäàÿ ðàçâèòèå õðîíè÷åñêèõ ðåöèäèâèðóþùèõ âîñïàëèòåëüíûõ ïðîöåññîâ. Ïðåïàðàòû îêàçûâàþò è èììóíîìîäóëèðóþùåå äåéñòâèå: ñíèæàþò êîëè÷åñòâî öèðêóëèðóþùèõ èììóííûõ êîìïëåêñîâ, ïîâûøàþò öèòîòîêñè÷åñêóþ àêòèâíîñòü ìàêðîôàãîâ è ÌÊ-êëåòîê, êîëè÷åñòâî Ò-ëèìôîöèòîâ, àêòèâíîñòü ðîçåòêîîáðàçîâàíèÿ Ò-ëèìôîöèòîâ.
Ïðè ïîäîñòðîì è õðîíè÷åñêîì àäíåêñèòå âñëåäñòâèå õëàìèäèéíîé èíôåêöèè ïðèìåíåíèå Âîáýíçèìà â äîçå 10 äðàæå òðè ðàçà â äåíü, çàïèâàÿ 300-400 ìë âîäû çà îäèí-äâà ÷àñà äî åäû, â òå÷åíèå 14 äíåé ïîçâîëÿåò äîáèòüñÿ áîëåå çíà÷èòåëüíîãî êëèíè÷åñêîãî ýôôåêòà (Dittmar et al.). Barson et al. ïðè áàêòåðèàëüíîì õðîíè÷åñêîì ïðîñòàòèòå íà ôîíå ïðèìåíåíèÿ àíòèáèîòèêîâ ïðèìåíÿëè Âîáýíçèì ïî 5 äðàæå òðè ðàçà â äåíü â òå÷åíèå 10 äíåé ñî çíà÷èòåëüíûì êëèíè÷åñêèì ýôôåêòîì. Rugendorf et al. ïðîâåëè ëå÷åíèå Âîáýíçèìîì (5 äðàæå òðè ðàçà â äåíü) 60 áîëüíûõ, ñòðàäàþùèõ íåáàêòåðèàëüíûì (çàñòîéíûì) ïðîñòàòèòîì, â âèäå ìîíîòåðàïèè â òå÷åíèå 6 ìåñÿöåâ.  45% ñëó÷àåâ äîñòèãíóòî èçëå÷åíèå, â 26%-óëó÷øåíèå».

Ïåðâîèñòî÷íèêîâ, íà êîòîðûå ññûëàþòñÿ àâòîðû, ÿ íå âèäåë.

Ïî ðåçèñòåíòíîñòè õëàìèäèé, ïðèâåäåííîå ñîîáùåíèå Erbelding E, Quinn TC., êàê Âû ïîíèìàåòå, ìàëî î ÷åì ãîâîðèò. Ïîñëå Âàøåãî âîçâðàùåíèÿ, ìîæíî áóäåò ïðîäîëæèòü ýòó òåìó ïðè óâàæèòåëüíîì îòíîøåíèè äðóã ê äðóãó.

Ñ óâàæåíèåì.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #68  
Ñòàðûé 29.01.2002, 21:56
V.Dvorianchikov V.Dvorianchikov âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 01.08.2001
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V.Dvorianchikov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïëîõóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Àëåêñåé,
ß áû õîòåë ïîëó÷èòü îò âàñ "ðûáó" äîãîâîðà è ïåðå÷åíü ïîëíîìî÷èé, êîòîðûå, ïî âàøåìó ìíåíèþ, ìû äîëæíû äåëåãèðîâàòü ñâîåé ñîòðóäíèöå, ÷òîáû îíà ìîãëà ïîëíîöåííî âûïîëíÿòü âîçëîæåííûå íà íåå çàäà÷è.
Âîò æàëü - ïîçäíî ìåíÿ îñåíèëî: ìíå íàäî áûëî áû îïòèìèçèðîâàòü òåõíîëîãèþ ïîä "çàðÿäêó" àìïóë ñ ÔÐ ïðÿìî â íåðàñïå÷àòàííîé çàâîäñêîé óïàêîâêå (êîðîáêå). Òîãäà áû îòïàëà íåîáõîäèìîñòü â èññëåäîâàíèè ñîäåðæèìîãî. ß,êîíå÷íî, ìîã áû åùå óñïåòü ñ ðàññ÷åòàìè è "òåõíè÷åñêîé" ÷àñòüþ, íî óæå íå óñïåþ ïðîèçâåñòè ïðåäâàðèòåëüíûõ èñïûòàíèé. À áåç íèõ ìîæíî çàïðîñòî îêîíôóçèòüñÿ. Äà åùå íà ÷óæáèíå! Âîò óæ âîèñòèíó: õîðîøàÿ ìûñëÿ ïðèõîäèò îïîñëÿ.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #69  
Ñòàðûé 29.01.2002, 23:27
Àâàòàð äëÿ Libman-Saks
Libman-Saks Libman-Saks âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Çàñëóæåííûé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 02.10.2001
Ãîðîä: Ëèñè÷àíñêa
Ñîîáùåíèé: 504
Libman-Saks ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò îòëè÷íóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Wink

Ä-ð Æèâîâ! Èçâèíÿþñü ÷òî íå â òåìó, íî ïî÷òè ïî òåìå. Òóò ìíå ïàöèåíò çàäàë èíòåðåñíûé âîïðîñ. Êîãäà ìîæíî çàíèìàòüñÿ ñåêñîì ïîñëå îäíîäíåâíîãî ëå÷åíèÿ Àçèòðîìèöèíîì? Íà êàêîé äåíü?
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #70  
Ñòàðûé 29.01.2002, 23:42
Zhivov Zhivov âíå ôîðóìà
Âåòåðàí ôîðóìà
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 20.08.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,792
Zhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Âñå â òåìó êîëëåãà Libman-Saks. Ïîñëå îäíîêðàòíîé äîçû àçèòðîìèöèíà êàê è ïîñëå ñêàæåì íåäåëüíîãî ïðèåìà äîêñèöèêëèíà êîíòðîëüíûå àíàëèçû íà íàëè÷èå âîçáóäèòåëåé (õàëàìèäèè, ìèêîïëàçìû, óðåàïëàçìû) äåëàþò íå ðàíåå ÷åì ÷åðåç 3 íåäåëè ïîñëå çàâåðøåíèÿ àíòèáèîòèêîòåðàïèè. Òîëüêî òîãäà ìîæíî ñêàçàòü ñ óâåðåííîñòüþ (íå 100%), ÷òî ïàöèåíò (åãî ïàðòíåðøà) çäîðîâû. Ñåêñîì ìîæíî çàíèìàòüñÿ âñåãäà, íî äî ïîëó÷åíèÿ íåãàòèâíûõ ðåçóëüòàòîâ êîíòðîëüíûõ èññëåäîâàíèé ïðåçåðâàòèâíûé ðåæèì ëó÷øå ñîáëþäàòü. Ñ óâàæåíèåì
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #71  
Ñòàðûé 29.01.2002, 23:50
Zhivov Zhivov âíå ôîðóìà
Âåòåðàí ôîðóìà
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 20.08.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,792
Zhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Ôèçðàñòâîð

Âëàäèìèð,
Ñïåøêà íóæíà ëèøü ïðè îïðåäåëåííûõ îáñòîÿòåëüñòâàõ, íî íå ïðè ïëàíèðîâàíèè ñòîëü ñåðüåçíîãî äåëà. Ê ôèçðàñòâîðó. À êàê åñëè íå ñåêðåò âñå ïðîèñõîäèò ñåé÷àñ? Âîò Âû âñêðûëè àìïóëó. À ñêîëüêî âðåìåíè óõîäèò íà "ïîäçàðÿäêó" ïåðåä ââåäåíèåì óæå ïðåïàðàòà õëàìèöèä. ×òî ýòî ñðåäñòâî ãîòîâèòñÿ ex tempore. Èëè ôèçðàñòâîð â îòêðûòîì âèäå íàõîäèòñÿ íåñêîëüêî ÷àñîâ. Òîãäà îí íå ñòåðèëåí è ïàðåíòåðàëüíî ïðèìåíÿòüñÿ íå ìîæåò. Èëè åãî âíîâü ãåðìåòè÷íî çàêðûâàþò è ñòåðèëèçóþò. Êàê ýòî âñå äåëàåòñÿ? À òî âåäü íå äàé Áîã ìû ñ Âàìè ÿãîäè÷íûõ àáñöåññîâ íàäåëàåì è âñåì áóäåò óæå íå äî õëàìèäèé. Ñ "ðûáîé" ïîêà ïîäîæäåì.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #72  
Ñòàðûé 29.01.2002, 23:59
Àâàòàð äëÿ Libman-Saks
Libman-Saks Libman-Saks âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Çàñëóæåííûé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 02.10.2001
Ãîðîä: Ëèñè÷àíñêa
Ñîîáùåíèé: 504
Libman-Saks ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò îòëè÷íóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Óâ. ä-ð Æèâîâ! Ñïàñèáî çà îòâåò. ß äàë ïàöèåíòó íåäåëþ òàê ñêàçàòü "îáäóìàííîãî" âîçäåðæàíèÿ. À ïî÷åìó Âû áåðåòå òðè íåäåëè?
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #73  
Ñòàðûé 30.01.2002, 00:05
Zhivov Zhivov âíå ôîðóìà
Âåòåðàí ôîðóìà
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 20.08.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,792
Zhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåZhivov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Âû íå âíèìàòåëüíî ïðî÷èòàëè ìîé ïîñò. Ýòî íå âîçäåðæàíèå, à èñïîëüçîâàíèå ïðåçåðâàòèâà (õîòÿ äëÿ íåêîòîðûõ ýòî ðàâíîñèëüíî âîçäåðæàíèþ). Äî òðåõ íåäåëü ïîñëå çàâåðøåíèÿ àíòèáèîòèêîòåðàïèè êîíòðîëüíûå òåñòû ìîãóò áûòü ëîæíîîòðèöàòåëüíûìè èëè ëîæíîïîëîæèòåëüíûìè. À íàì æå íóæåí äîñòîâåðíûé ðåçóëüòàò
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #74  
Ñòàðûé 30.01.2002, 00:09
V.Dvorianchikov V.Dvorianchikov âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 01.08.2001
Ñîîáùåíèé: 2,953
V.Dvorianchikov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïëîõóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Äà íåò æå!
Ìû âîîáùå íå âñêðûâàåì àìïóë. "Çàðÿäêà" ïðîèñõîäèò ñêâîçü ñòåêëî. Ò.å., ê ïîòðåáèòåëþ àìïóëû ïðèõîäÿò óæå çàðÿæåííûìè, à èõ ñîäåðæèìîå àáñîëþòíî èíòàêòíî.
Ïîëàãàþ, åñëè ìû áóäåì ðàñõîäîâàòü 5-ìë àìïóëó â òå÷åíèå 2-3 ÷àñîâ, ñòàðàòåëüíî ïðèêðûâàÿ åå ñîäåðæèìîå, ñêàæåì, ñòåðèëüíûì êîëïà÷êîì îò øïðèöà, íè÷åãî ñòðàøíîãî íå ñëó÷èòñÿ: èìåëèñü ïðåöåíäåíòû ðàñõîäîâàíèÿ àìïóëû â òå÷åíèå 5-6 ñóòîê â äîìàøíèõ óñëîâèÿõ (áåçîáðàçèå, êîíå÷íî, íî ôàêò!). Òåì áîëåå, ÷òî ÔÐ âîîáùå íå ïðèãîäåí äëÿ ðàçìíîæåíèÿ ìèêðîáîâ, åñëè â íåãî íå ïîïàäåò îðãàíèêà.

Âåðîÿòíî, îòâå÷àÿ íà âîïðîñ Libman-Saks'a, âû èìåëè â âèäó ñðîêè ïðåäâàðèòåëüíîãî àíàëèçà (êîãäà: "+" - óæåñòî÷åíèå òåðàïèè; "-" - òðåõìåñÿ÷íàÿ ïàóçà äî êîíòðîëÿ).
Âîçìîæíî, íåïîíèìàíèå ðàçëè÷èé ìåæäó ïðåäâàðèòåëüíûì è êîíòðîëüíûì îáñëåäîâàíèÿìè è ïðèâîäèò ê òàêèì âûñîêèì ïîêàçàòåëÿì èçëå÷èìîñòè ÇÏÏÏ ïðè èñïîëüçîâàíèè ÀÁ, íà êàêèå óêàçûâàþò àâòîðû ðàçðàáîòîê.

À êàê áûòü ïðè èñïîëüçîâàíèè ÀÁ ñïîñîáíûõ ê ðàâíîâåñíîé äèôôóçèè â êîìïîíåíòû ñïåðìû?  ýòîì ñëó÷àå êàæäûé ÏÀ óìåíüøàåò ýôôåêòèâíóþ êîíöåíòðàöèþ ÀÁ â ñàìûõ íóæíûõ îáëàñòÿõ, õîòÿ è ïîâûøàåò åå ó æåíùèí, åñëè, êîíå÷íî, íå ïðåäîõðàíÿòüñÿ ïðåçåðâàòèâîì.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #75  
Ñòàðûé 30.01.2002, 00:14
Àâàòàð äëÿ Libman-Saks
Libman-Saks Libman-Saks âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Çàñëóæåííûé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 02.10.2001
Ãîðîä: Ëèñè÷àíñêa
Ñîîáùåíèé: 504
Libman-Saks ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò îòëè÷íóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Óâ. ä-ð Æèâîâ! Äåëî â òîì, ÷òî âðÿä-ëè ïàöèåíò âåðí¸òñÿ íà ïîâòîðíûé àíàëèç, áîìæ. Åñëè áû îí âåðíóëñÿ ÿ áû âåðîÿòíî åìó äàë Äîêñèöèêëèí ( äåøåâëå). Èíòåðåñíî íà ñ÷¸ò 3-õ íåäåëüíîãî ñðîêà, äóìàë ÷òî íåäåëÿ ïîñëå àçèðîìèöèíà . À ïîñëå äîêñèöèêëèíà òîæå òàæå ñõåìà - òðè íåäåëè è ïîâòîð?
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
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