#31
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Î âûñîêèõ äîçàõ ðå÷ü íå çàõîäèëà. Âû, Dmblock, îïÿòü æå, íè÷åãî íå ïðåäëîæèëè. ÄÎïóñòèì, ó ýòîãî îðãàíèçìà ÀÄ 120/60. Èëè 70/30. ×åì Âû åãî ëå÷èòå (ôóðîñåìèäîì, êèñëîðîäîì, ìîðôèíîì óæå ïîëå÷èëè)
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#32
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Öèòàòà:
Ñôîðìóëèðóéòå ÷åòêî ïîñòàâëåííóþ çàäà÷ó è ïðåäñòàâüòå êëèíè÷åñêèé ñëó÷àé (ãèïîòåòè÷åñêèé?) è ÿ ðàä áóäó èçëîæèòü ñâîþ ñóáúåêòèâíóþ òî÷êó çðåíèÿ. |
#33
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Ïðåäëàãàþ ïðåäëîæèòü. Ãèïîòåòè÷åñêèé ñëó÷àé (äàæå ðåàëüíûé), ìîæåò áûòü íåäîñòàòî÷íî ïîäðîáíî, ïðèâåäåí ìíîé íà ñòðàíèöå 2. Äèñêóññèÿ ïîøëà â íàïðàâëåíèè òîãî, ÷òî ñåðäå÷íóþ ñëàáîñòü ìîæíî ëå÷èòü äîïìèíîì áåç íèòðîãëèöåðèíà (ÿ îêðóãëÿþ èäåþ, êîíå÷íî), à ïîòîì âîò åùå è áåç äîïàìèíà. Åñëè íåò ãèïîòåíçèè - òî ìîæåò, è âîâñå áåç ìèìåòèêîâ âûêðóòèìñÿ (õîòÿ ïðè ÖÂÄ 240 è Ô 30% åñëè óæ åìó ïëîõî è ó íåãî îòåê ëåãêèõ, òî âðÿä ëè). Äîïìèí - íå íàèëó÷øèé, òàê âîïðîñ - à êòî ëó÷øèé?
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#34
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ß ïîçâîëþ ñåáå ïðèñîåäèíèòüñÿ. Ó áîëüíûõ ñ ãèïîòåíçèåé ìû íåðåäêî äîáèâàëèñü ýôôåêòà áåç íèòðîãëèöåðèíà, íà êîìáèíàöèè äîïàìèí/äîáóòàìèí. Åñëè æå äàâëåíèå ïðèëè÷íîå, òî âíå çàâèñèìîñòè îò ôðàêöèè âûáðîñà, äîïàìèí âèäèòñÿ íåñêîëüêî ÷ðåçìåðíûì.
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#35
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Öèòàòà:
PS Ó Âàñ èñïîëüçóåòñÿ ÂÀÁÊ? PPS "The 2004 ACC/AHA STEMI guidelines suggest using dopamine in hypotensive patients with clinical evidence of shock and using dobutamine in hypotensive patients without clinical evidence of shock" |
#36
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ÂÀÁÊ èñïîëüçóåòñÿ, õîòÿ ðåæå, ÷åì õîòåëîñü áû, ââèäó îãðàíè÷åííîñòè áàëëîíîâ. Ðàç 10 â ãîä, ìîæåò ÷óòü áîëüøå. Õîðîøèå ðåçóëüòàòû. ÕÎòÿ íå ïîõîæå, ÷òî äîêòîð Zubarev èìååò ðåàëüíûé ïðàêòè÷åñêèé îïûò åãî èñïîëüçîâàíèÿ, åñëè íàçûâàåò åãî áîëåå ãóìàííûì (÷åì ìèìåòèêè) ìåòîäîì, ýòî - ÈÍÂÀÇÈÂÍÎÅ âìåøàòåëüñòâî, äëÿ íåãî íóæíà àíòèêîàãóëÿöèÿ, îò íåãî íîãà ó ïàöèåíòîâ, êîòîðûå è òàê âñå â øîêå, èíîãäà ñòàíîâèòñÿ ñîâñåì áåëàÿ... Êëàññíàÿ âåùü, êîãäà ìèìåòèêîâ íåäîñòàòî÷íî.
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#37
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ïîñìîòðèòå ñîîáùåíèå äîêòîðà Zubarew
Âëèÿåò íà ÄÇËÀ êàê íîðìàëüíûé êàðäèîòîíèê. "Íå ëþáëþ äîïàìèí, à ëþáëþ ìåçàòîí ñ àäðåíàëèíîì" - î÷åíü ÷àñòíîå ìíåíèå çàñëóæåííîãî ôîðóì÷àíèíà. Åñëè ÷òî è ðàçãîíÿåò è îêàçûâàåò ïðîàðèòìîãåííûé ýôôåêò, òàê ýòî àäðåíàëèí, õîòÿ èì ìû òîæå ïîëüçóåìñÿ (êàê òðåòüèì èëè ÷åòâåðòûì ìèìåòèêîì). Ìåçàòîíîì æå ó íàñ ïîëüçóþòñÿ òîëüêî íà ÀÈÊå ñ öåëüþ "ñîáèðàíèÿ" ñîñóäèñòîãî òîíóñà, íó èëè åñëè ó áîëüíîãî ÿâíûé ñåïñèñ. Ïîëåçíîñòü ìåçàòîíà ïðè ñåðäå÷íîé ñëàáîñòè ïîçâîëþ ñåáå ïîñòàâèòü ïîä ñîìíåíèå. PS Ó Âàñ èñïîëüçóåòñÿ ÂÀÁÊ? PPS "The 2004 ACC/AHA STEMI guidelines suggest using dopamine in hypotensive patients with clinical evidence of shock and using dobutamine in hypotensive patients without clinical evidence of shock"[/quote] ×èòàþ ðåêîìåíäîâàííûé ãàéäëàéí. |
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#38
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Êàðäèîòîíèê êàðäèîòîíèêó ðîçíü.
Ïîä ãóìàííîñòüþ êîëëåãà Çóáàðåâ, âèäèìî, èìåë ââèäó ýôôåêòèâíîñòü - áåçîïàñíîñòü. Íàïðèìåð, âîäà - îñëîæíåíèé ìåíüøå, ÷åì íà èíîòðîïû, íî íåýôôåêòèâíî. À êîíòðïóëüñàöèÿ íàîáîðîò - íå òàê áåçîïàñíî, çàòî ýôôåêòèâíî. Ñ ò.ç. ïðîãíîçà äëÿ ïàöèåíòà âûõîäèò ãóìàííåå. Åñëè âîäà ââîäèòñÿ íå ñ öåëüþ âîñïîëíåíèÿ ÎÖÊ. |
#39
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N Engl J Med. 2010 Mar 4;362(9):779-89.
Comparison of dopamine and norepinephrine in the treatment of shock. De Backer D, Biston P, Devriendt J, Madl C, Chochrad D, Aldecoa C, Brasseur A, Defrance P, Gottignies P, Vincent JL; SOAP II Investigators. Collaborators (12) Department of Intensive Care, Erasme University Hospital, Brussels, Belgium.(Å-ìåéë óäàëåí) Comment in: N Engl J Med. 2010 Mar 4;362(9):841-3. Abstract BACKGROUND: Both dopamine and norepinephrine are recommended as first-line vasopressor agents in the treatment of shock. There is a continuing controversy about whether one agent is superior to the other. METHODS: In this multicenter, randomized trial, we assigned patients with shock to receive either dopamine or norepinephrine as first-line vasopressor therapy to restore and maintain blood pressure. When blood pressure could not be maintained with a dose of 20 microg per kilogram of body weight per minute for dopamine or a dose of 0.19 microg per kilogram per minute for norepinephrine, open-label norepinephrine, epinephrine, or vasopressin could be added. The primary outcome was the rate of death at 28 days after randomization; secondary end points included the number of days without need for organ support and the occurrence of adverse events. RESULTS: The trial included 1679 patients, of whom 858 were assigned to dopamine and 821 to norepinephrine. The baseline characteristics of the groups were similar. There was no significant between-group difference in the rate of death at 28 days (52.5% in the dopamine group and 48.5% in the norepinephrine group; odds ratio with dopamine, 1.17; 95% confidence interval, 0.97 to 1.42; P=0.10). However, there were more arrhythmic events among the patients treated with dopamine than among those treated with norepinephrine (207 events [24.1%] vs. 102 events [12.4%], P<0.001). A subgroup analysis showed that dopamine, as compared with norepinephrine, was associated with an increased rate of death at 28 days among the 280 patients with cardiogenic shock but not among the 1044 patients with septic shock or the 263 with hypovolemic shock (P=0.03 for cardiogenic shock, P=0.19 for septic shock, and P=0.84 for hypovolemic shock, in Kaplan-Meier analyses). CONCLUSIONS: Although there was no significant difference in the rate of death between patients with shock who were treated with dopamine as the first-line vasopressor agent and those who were treated with norepinephrine, the use of dopamine was associated with a greater number of adverse events. (ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT00314704.) 2010 Massachusetts Medical Society Ëþáîïûòíûé àáñòðàêò... |
#40
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Öèòàòà:
ÂÀÁÊ áîëåå "ãóìàíà" â ýòîì îòíîøåíèè, ïîñêîëüêó îíà ïîçâîëÿåò óëó÷øèòü ãåìîäèíàìè÷åñêèé ñòàòóñ áîëüíûõ áåç óâåëè÷åíèÿ ïîòðåáëåíèÿ ìèîêàðäîì êèñëîðîäà. Íåîáõîäèìîñòü àíòèêîàãóëÿöèè è ðèñê èøåìèè íèæíåé êîíå÷íîñòè îñòàâèì çà ðàìêàìè. ß èìåë â âèäó òîëüêî áîëüøóþ "ãóìàííîñòü" â îòíîøåíèè ìèîêàðäà. Íå õî÷ó ñïîðèòü î âîïðîñàõ, â êîèõ ÿ íå î÷åíü îñâåäîìëåí. ß òðóæóñü â íåéðîõèðóðãèè ïîñëåäæíèå äâà ãîäà è ïðîáëåìû êàðäèîõèðóðãèè îò ìåíÿ âåñüìà äàëåêè, íî ìîãó ñîñëàòüñÿ íà àêòóàëüíûå ó÷åáíèêè è îïûò äðóãèõ êîëëåã, ó êîòîðûõ áàëîíû èìåþòñÿ â äîñòàòêå. Åñëè ïðè÷èíà ñåðäå÷íîé íåäîñòàòî÷íîñòè ïîòåíöèàëüíî îáðàòèìà è åñòü ïîêàçàíèÿ äëÿ èñïîëüçîâàíèÿ êîíòðïóëüñàòîðà, òî ðåêîìåíäóåòñÿ íà÷èíàòü ìåõàíè÷åñêóþ ïîääåðæêó òàê ñêîðî, êàê ýòî âîçìîæíî, íå äîæèäàÿÿñü "íåýôôåêòèâíîñòè ìèìåòèêîâ". Öèòàòà:
֏. |
#41
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Òàøà, ñ ýòîé ñòàòüè è íà÷àëîñü îáñóæäåíèå â òåìå. http://www.forums.rusmedserv.com/sho...53&postcount=1
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#42
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Óâû è Àõ!!! Êàþñü, òåìó íà÷àëà ñ ïîñëåäíåãî êëèíè÷åñêîãî ñëó÷àÿ. À ïî÷åìó íåëüçÿ e-mail? Ýòîò ýëåêòðîííûé àäðåñ â îòêðûòîì äîñòóïå â Ïàáìåäå: åñëè êòî-òî èíòåðåñóåòñÿ äàííîé ðàáîòîé, òî âïîëíå ïðèíÿòàÿ ïðàêòèêà íàïðÿìóþ ñïðîñèòü àâòîðà (çíàåòå, äàæå îòâå÷àþò!).
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#43
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Íå íàäî îáèæàòüñÿ. ß æå íå ñêàçàë, ÷òî ýòà êîìáèíàöèÿ ãëóïà è íå îáîñíîâàíà, ÿ ëèøü èìåë â âèäó, ÷òî ýòî - íå âïîëíå îïòèìàëüíûé âûáîð äëÿ âñåõ êëèíè÷åñêèõ ñèòóàöèé. Åñëè áóäåò èíòåðåñíî, ìîæíî ðàçîáðàòü êîíêðåòíûå êëèíè÷åñêèå ïðèìåðû. ×òî êàñàåòñÿ ñàìîãî ïåðâîãî áîëüíîãî - âñå æå õîòåëîñü áû êîíêðåòèêè; íèçêèé ÑÈ è âûñîêîå ÎÏÑÑ - êîíå÷íî, âàæíî, à öèôðû?; óæ ÀÄ ñêàæèòå - ýòî, ÈÌÕÎ, îäèí èç ïîêàçàòåëåé, ñ êîòîðûõ íàäî íà÷èíàòü ïðåäñòàâëåíèå áîëüíîãî.
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#44
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Íî ÿ æå ïðèâîæó êîíêðåòíóþ êëèíè÷åñêóþ ñèòóàöèþ! Èç ñîâåðøåííî êîíêðåòíîé êàðäèîëîãè÷åñêîé îïåðû, à ìåíÿ àäðåñóþò ïî÷åìó-òî ê ñîîáùåíèþ äîêòîðà Zubarew, êîòîðûé çàíèìàåòñÿ áîëüíûìè ñ ×ÌÒ è î íèõ è ïèøåò. À òàáëè÷êó î âëèÿíèè äîïìèíà íà ÄÇËÀ ÿ íå î÷åíü ïîíèìàþ; åñëè åãî ââîäèòü 20 ìêã/êã/ìèí. çäîðîâîìó, òî, íàâåðíîå, äà. À åñëè ÷åëîâåêó ñ ñåðäå÷íîé ñëàáîñòüþ ââîäèòü - òî ó íåãî ÄÇËÀ ñíèçèòñÿ, õîòü óáåéñÿ(ìû Ñâàí-Ãàíö õîòü 10 ðàç â ãîä, íî âñå-òàêè ñòàâèì). Äîïìèí ÷åëîâåêó ñ îòåêîì ëåãêèõ, ÖÂÄ 240 è Ô 30% íå îïòèìàëüíî, à ÷òî îïòèìàëüíî (íåò, íó ñåðüåçíî? Ïî ïîâîäó ïåðâîãî ïðèìåðà - äàâëåíèå íå ïðèâîæó, ïîñêîëüêó îíî íè âàøèì, íè íàøèì - 90/55 íàïðèìåð (òî åñòü, êàêîå çàõîòèì, òàêîå è ñäåëàåì, íî ñ÷èòàåì öåëåñîîáðàçíûì ñäåëàòü òàêîå è äàëüøå ìèìåòèêè íå íàêðó÷èâàòü). Õîòèòå ÎÏÑÑ è ÑÈ - ïîæàëóéñòà, ÑÈ 1,9, ÎÏÑÑ 1400.
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#45
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Êîëëåãà, òàáëè÷êà â ñîîáùåíèè äîêòîðà Çóáàðåâà ïîêàçûâàåò, ÷òî ïðè ïðèìåíåíèè äîïàìèíà ÄÇËÀ ïðîãðåññèâíî óâåëè÷èâàåòñÿ ïðè óâåëè÷åíèè äîçû. Íó òàê îí äåéñòâóåò.  îòëè÷èå îò äîáóòàìèíà. È ñîâåðøåííî íåçà÷åì óáèâàòüñÿ. Ïðîñòî Âàøè íàáëþäåíèÿ íå ñîâïàäàþò ñ ëèòåðàòóðíûìè äàííûìè. Äàííûìè ïîëó÷åííûìè â òîì ÷èñëå íå íà çäîðîâûõ äîáðîâîëüöàõ. Âîò òóò íàïðèìåð: [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]
Åñòü òàêàÿ êàðòèíêà: [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ] Äà è âîò ïðî ñåðäå÷íóþ íåäîñòàòî÷íîñòü è äîïàìèí: [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ] Öèòàòà:
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