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Âåðíóòüñÿ   Äèñêóññèîííûé Êëóá Ðóññêîãî Ìåäèöèíñêîãî Ñåðâåðà > Ôîðóìû âðà÷åáíûõ êîíñóëüòàöèé > Íåâðîëîãèÿ è íåéðîõèðóðãèÿ > Ôîðóì äëÿ îáùåíèÿ âðà÷åé íåâðîëîãîâ è íåéðîõèðóðãîâ

Ôîðóì äëÿ îáùåíèÿ âðà÷åé íåâðîëîãîâ è íåéðîõèðóðãîâ Ôîðóì ïðåäíàçíà÷åí äëÿ îáùåíèÿ âðà÷åé ìåæäó ñîáîé.

Îòâåò
 
Îïöèè òåìû Ïîèñê â ýòîé òåìå Îïöèè ïðîñìîòðà
  #1  
Ñòàðûé 02.03.2006, 18:40
EVP EVP âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Âåòåðàí ôîðóìà
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 08.07.2004
Ãîðîä: Êèðîâ
Ñîîáùåíèé: 7,190
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 9
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 992 ðàç(à) çà 975 ñîîáùåíèé
EVP ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåEVP ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåEVP ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåEVP ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåEVP ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåEVP ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåEVP ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåEVP ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåEVP ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåEVP ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåEVP ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Àêóïóíêòóðà è ëåêàðñòâà îäèíàêîâî ýôôåêòèâíû äëÿ ïðîôèëàêòèêè ìèãðåíè

Àêóïóíêòóðà è ëåêàðñòâà îäèíàêîâî ýôôåêòèâíû äëÿ ïðîôèëàêòèêè ìèãðåíè [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]
02.03 12:15

Àêóïóíêòóðà ñòîëü æå ýôôåêòèâíà äëÿ ïðåäóïðåæäåíèÿ ïðèñòóïîâ ìèãðåíè, êàê è òðàäèöèîííûå ëåêàðñòâåííûå ñðåäñòâà, ñîîáùàåò æóðíàë The Lancet Neurology. Áîëåå òîãî, ïîëîæèòåëüíûé ýôôåêò îêàçûâàåò äàæå ôèêòèâíàÿ àêóïóíêòóðà, ñ÷èòàþò íåìåöêèå ó÷åíûå.

Ìèãðåíü – ýòî âåñüìà ðàñïðîñòðàíåííîå çàáîëåâàíèå, êîòîðîå ïðîÿâëÿåòñÿ ïîâòîðÿþùèìèñÿ ïðèñòóïàìè îñòðîé ãîëîâíîé áîëè, îáû÷íî îäíîñòîðîííåé è ïóëüñèðóþùåé.  Âåëèêîáðèòàíèè ìèãðåíüþ ñòðàäàþò ïðèìåðíî 15% íàñåëåíèÿ, ïðè÷åì æåíùèíû áîëåþò ÷àùå ìóæ÷èí.

 èññëåäîâàíèè, ïðîâåäåííîì íåìåöêèìè ó÷åíûìè èç Óíèâåðñèòåòà Äóéñáåðã-Ýññåí (University of Duisberg-Essen), ïðèíèìàëî ó÷àñòèå îêîëî 800 ïàöèåíòîâ, ñòðàäàþùèõ îò ïðèñòóïîâ ìèãðåíè 2-6 ðàç â ìåñÿö, êàê ìèíèìóì â òå÷åíèå 26 íåäåëü.

290 ïàöèåíòàì ïðîôèëàêòèêó ìèãðåíè ïðîâîäèëè ñ ïîìîùüþ òðàäèöèîííîé êèòàéñêîé àêóïóíêòóðû, ââîäÿ èãëû â ñòðîãî îïðåäåëåííûå òî÷êè. Ó 317 ïàöèåíòîâ ïðèìåíÿëàñü ôèêòèâíàÿ àêóïóíêòóðà, ïðè êîòîðîé èãëû ââîäèëèñü â ñëó÷àéíûå òî÷êè. Îñòàëüíûå 187 ïàöèåíòîâ áûëè ïðîëå÷åíû ëåêàðñòâåííûìè ïðåïàðàòàìè, òðàäèöèîííî ïðèìåíÿþùèìèñÿ äëÿ ïðîôèëàêòèêè ïðèñòóïîâ ìèãðåíè – áåòà-áëîêàòîðàìè, ôëóíàðèçèíîì è âàëüïðîåâîé êèñëîòîé (ïðîòèâîýïèëåïòè÷åñêîå ñðåäñòâî). Ëå÷åíèå ïðîâîäèëîñü â òå÷åíèå 6 íåäåëü.

Îöåíêà ðåçóëüòàòîâ ïðîâîäèëàñü ñïóñòÿ 23-26 íåäåëü ïîñëå íà÷àëà èññëåäîâàíèÿ íà îñíîâàíèè äíåâíèêîâ, êîòîðûå âåëèñü âñåìè ïàöèåíòàìè.

Íåìåöêèå ó÷åíûå ïîä ðóêîâîäñòâîì Ãàíñà-Êðèñòîôåðà Äèíåðà (Hans-Christoph Diener) óñòàíîâèëè, ÷òî ïðîôèëàêòè÷åñêèé ýôôåêò ñðåäñòâ, ïðèìåíÿåìûõ ó âñåõ òðåõ ãðóïï ïàöèåíòîâ îêàçàëñÿ ñõîäíûì. Ïîñëå ëå÷åíèÿ êîëè÷åñòâî ïðèñòóïîâ ìèãðåíè ñòàëî çàìåòíî íèæå ó 47% ïàöèåíòîâ, êîòîðûì ïðîâîäèëîñü îáû÷íîå èãëîóêàëûâàíèå, ó 39% ïàöèåíòîâ ïîñëå ôèêòèâíîãî èãëîóêàëûâàíèÿ è ó 40% ïàöèåíòîâ, ïðèìåíÿâøèõ òðàäèöèîííûå ëåêàðñòâåííûå ñðåäñòâà.

Ñàìè èññëåäîâàòåëè íå îæèäàëè ïîäîáíûõ ðåçóëüòàòîâ è íå ñìîãëè îáúÿñíèòü, êàêèå ìåõàíèçìû ëåæàò â îñíîâå ýôôåêòèâíîñòè ýòèõ ñðåäñòâ.

«Ðåøåíèå î òîì, ñòîèò ëè èñïîëüçîâàòü àêóïóíêòóðó äëÿ ïðîôèëàêòèêè ìèãðåíè îñòàåòñÿ çà ëå÷àùèì âðà÷îì», - êîíñòàòèðóåò Äèíåð.

Ìåæäó òåì, ñïåöèàëèñòû ñ÷èòàþò, ÷òî ìèãðåíü – ýòî íàñòîëüêî ñëîæíîå ñîñòîÿíèå, ïðîòåêàþùåå íåîäèíàêîâî ó ðàçíûõ ëþäåé, ÷òî óíèâåðñàëüíîãî ëå÷åíèÿ áûòü íå ìîæåò, è ó êîíêðåòíûõ ñëó÷àÿõ ìîãóò îêàçàòüñÿ ýôôåêòèâíûìè ñîâåðøåííî ðàçíûå ñðåäñòâà.

Ññûëêè ïî òåìå:

Acupuncture 'like migraine pill' – BBC, 02.03.2006
[Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]

Acupuncture Similar to Drug Treatment for Prevention of Migraine – Medscape, 01.03.2006
[Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #2  
Ñòàðûé 25.09.2006, 11:17
Tatyana_R Tatyana_R âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë æåíñêèé
Íà÷èíàþùèé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 22.09.2006
Ãîðîä: ã.Îäåññà Óêðàèíà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 20
Tatyana_R *
Ó ìåíÿ ìèãðåíü óæå â òå÷åíèå 30 ëåò - çà ýòî âðåìÿ ÿ ïåðåïðîáîâàëà ìíîãî ÷åãî, â òîì ÷èñëå ïðîøëà 3 êóðñà èãëîóêàëûâàíèÿ ó 3 ðàçíûõ âðà÷åé (íåâðàïàòîëîãîâ). Ïðè÷åì îäèí èç íèõ ó÷èëñÿ è áûë íåîäíîêðàòíî â Êèòàå, ñòàâèë ïî ïóëüñó äèàãíîç (ìíå ñêàçàë îá îïåðàöèè ïî óäàëåíèþ ÿè÷íèêà) è "âîîáùå òâîðèë ÷óäåñà" - îí ìåíÿ ñðàçó ïðåäóïðåäèë, ÷òî øàíñîâ íà òî, ÷òî ïîìîæåò îêîëî 20%. Íî, óâû, - ìíå ýòî íå ïîìîãëî.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #3  
Ñòàðûé 26.11.2006, 22:38
Àâàòàð äëÿ Leka-spb
Leka-spb Leka-spb âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë æåíñêèé
çàáàíåí
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 26.11.2006
Ãîðîä: Sankt-Peterburg
Ñîîáùåíèé: 8
Leka-spb
Unhappy

Ìíå êàæåòñÿ, ÷òî ëå÷åíèå ìèãðåíè âñåãäà áûëî ñëîæíûì äåëîì, âåäü îäíîé ïðè÷íèíû, êàê è îäíîé òàáëåòêè îò íå¸ íåò.Ïîýòîìó êàæäûé ñòðàäàþùèé ìèãðåíüþ è ïîäáèðàåò ëåêàðñòâî äëÿ ñåáÿ. îáùèå ïðèíöèïû åñòü, íî âñå ðàâíî- ñ îãëÿäêîé íà ÷åëîâåêà, åãî òèï, áîëåçíü.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #4  
Ñòàðûé 26.11.2006, 23:03
Íàòàëüÿ Ï. Íàòàëüÿ Ï. âíå ôîðóìà
Ïî÷åòíûé ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 16.11.2004
Ãîðîä: íåò
Ñîîáùåíèé: 13,066
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 1,101 ðàç(à) çà 845 ñîîáùåíèé
Íàòàëüÿ Ï. ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåÍàòàëüÿ Ï. ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåÍàòàëüÿ Ï. ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåÍàòàëüÿ Ï. ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåÍàòàëüÿ Ï. ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåÍàòàëüÿ Ï. ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåÍàòàëüÿ Ï. ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåÍàòàëüÿ Ï. ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåÍàòàëüÿ Ï. ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåÍàòàëüÿ Ï. ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåÍàòàëüÿ Ï. ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò Leka-spb
íî âñå ðàâíî- ñ îãëÿäêîé íà ÷åëîâåêà, åãî òèï, áîëåçíü.
Ãîìåîïàòèÿ?

Êîììåíòàðèè ê ñîîáùåíèþ:
OrFun îäîáðèë(à): íåò , âèäèìî -"Ìîè äîðîãèå ïèÿâî÷êè !"
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #5  
Ñòàðûé 28.11.2006, 02:10
Àâàòàð äëÿ Divisenko
Divisenko Divisenko âíå ôîðóìà
Âðà÷ ïñèõîòåðàïåâò
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 03.09.2005
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 15,017
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 3,878 ðàç(à) çà 3,776 ñîîáùåíèé
Çàïèñåé â äíåâíèêå: 2
Divisenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDivisenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDivisenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDivisenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDivisenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDivisenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDivisenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDivisenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDivisenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDivisenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDivisenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
ß âñòðå÷àë èíôîðìàöèþ îá èññëåäîâàíèè ýôôåêòèâíîñòè ÒÊÌ, êàê äîïîëíåíèå ê "îáû÷íîìó" ëå÷åíèþ, òàêæå îò íåìåöêèõ ó÷åíûõ, ïðè çàáîëåâàíèÿõ ÎÄÀ, òàì ðàçíèöà â ýôôåêòèâíîñòè ìåæäó "ìåðèäèàíàìè" è "ìèìî òî÷åê" áûëà 3%, 71% è 68% ñîîòâåòñòâåííî. ×òî ïîäòâåðæäàåò ìíåíèå Èãîðÿ Íèêîëàåâè÷à.
Ññûëêó, åñëè ïîèñêàòü, íàéòè ìîæíî, íî î÷åíü äàâíî ýòî áûëî.
Èíòåðåñíî, îòêóäà ðàçíèöà ìåæäó ìåòîäàìè, ìîæåò áûòü òå äîêòîðà, êîòîðûå ìèìî òî÷åê êîëîëè, íåñåðúåçíî îòíåñëèñü ê ïðîöåäóðå è "ïëàöåáî-ýôôåêò" áûë ñìàçàí?
__________________
divisenko.ru
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #6  
Ñòàðûé 28.11.2006, 12:23
Baul Baul âíå ôîðóìà
Êàíäèäàò â âåòåðàíû ôîðóìà
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 21.07.2006
Ãîðîä: Êàçàíü
Ñîîáùåíèé: 1,178
Baul ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåBaul ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåBaul ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåBaul ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåBaul ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåBaul ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåBaul ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåBaul ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåBaul ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåBaul ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåBaul ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò Anthioh
Èíòåðåñíî, îòêóäà ðàçíèöà ìåæäó ìåòîäàìè, ìîæåò áûòü òå äîêòîðà, êîòîðûå ìèìî òî÷åê êîëîëè, íåñåðúåçíî îòíåñëèñü ê ïðîöåäóðå è "ïëàöåáî-ýôôåêò" áûë ñìàçàí?
Ñìóòíî ïðåäñòàâëÿþ ñåáå ýòî ôèçè÷åñêè. Âû èìååòå â âèäó ðàçíèöó ÷òî â îäíîì ñëó÷àå âðà÷ ïîëçàåò ñ ëèíåéêîé è ëóïîé, ðàñ÷åð÷èâàÿ êîæó áîëüíîãî ïîäãîíÿÿ ìèëëèìåòð çà ìèëëèìåòðîì, à â äðóãîì - ëåïèò èãëó íàñêîðî è íå ãëÿäÿ? Íà ñàìîì äåëå ýòî âðÿä ëè. Òàêóþ ÷åòêóþ ðàçíèöó áîëüíîé íå óâèäèò, èãëû ñòàâÿò ïðèìåðíî îäèíàêîâî è ïëàöåáî-ýôôåêò äîëæåí áûë áûòü áû ñõîæ.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #7  
Ñòàðûé 29.11.2006, 02:54
Àâàòàð äëÿ Divisenko
Divisenko Divisenko âíå ôîðóìà
Âðà÷ ïñèõîòåðàïåâò
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 03.09.2005
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 15,017
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 3,878 ðàç(à) çà 3,776 ñîîáùåíèé
Çàïèñåé â äíåâíèêå: 2
Divisenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDivisenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDivisenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDivisenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDivisenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDivisenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDivisenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDivisenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDivisenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDivisenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåDivisenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò Baul
Ñìóòíî ïðåäñòàâëÿþ ñåáå ýòî ôèçè÷åñêè. Âû èìååòå â âèäó ðàçíèöó ÷òî â îäíîì ñëó÷àå âðà÷ ïîëçàåò ñ ëèíåéêîé è ëóïîé, ðàñ÷åð÷èâàÿ êîæó áîëüíîãî ïîäãîíÿÿ ìèëëèìåòð çà ìèëëèìåòðîì, à â äðóãîì - ëåïèò èãëó íàñêîðî è íå ãëÿäÿ? Íà ñàìîì äåëå ýòî âðÿä ëè. Òàêóþ ÷åòêóþ ðàçíèöó áîëüíîé íå óâèäèò, èãëû ñòàâÿò ïðèìåðíî îäèíàêîâî è ïëàöåáî-ýôôåêò äîëæåí áûë áûòü áû ñõîæ.
ß çàáûë ïîñòàâèòü ñìàéëèê.
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divisenko.ru
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #8  
Ñòàðûé 03.02.2009, 19:22
Àâàòàð äëÿ Melnichenko
Melnichenko Melnichenko âíå ôîðóìà
ÂÐÀ×
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 26.07.2001
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 117,195
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 26
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 33,590 ðàç(à) çà 32,664 ñîîáùåíèé
Melnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
×åëîâå÷åñòâî óïîðíî ïûòàåòñÿ íàéòè ìåñòî èãëîòåðàïèè ( à ñïîíñîðû äàþò äåíüãè íà èññëåäîâàíèÿ)
Òåì íå ìåíåå :

Ñîãëàñíî ìåòà-àíàëèçó, îïóáëèêîâàííîìó îí-ëàéí â BMJ, áîëåóòîëÿþùèé ýôôåêò àêóïóíêòóðû «îãðàíè÷åí, â ëó÷øåì ñëó÷àå».
Madsen M. V., Gøtzsche P. C. and Hróbjartsson A. Acupuncture treatment for pain: systematic review of randomised clinical trials with acupuncture, placebo acupuncture, and no acupuncture groups. BMJ 2009;338:a3115
Published in Physician”s First Watch January 28, 2009
Ñìîòðåòü òåêñò ñòàòüè


Èññëåäîâàòåëè îáúåäèíèëè äàííûå 13 èññëåäîâàíèé, â êîòîðûõ îêîëî 3000 ïàöèåíòîâ ñ îñòðîé èëè õðîíè÷åñêîé áîëüþ áûëè ðàíäîìèçèðîâàíû ê àêóïóíêòóðå, ïëàöåáî-àêóïóíêòóðå èëè îòñóòñòâèþ àêóïóíêòóðû.  öåëîì, ëå÷åáíàÿ àêóïóíêòóðà áûëà íåìíîãî ýôôåêòèâíåå ïëàöåáî-àêóïóíêòóðû, è óìåðåííî ýôôåêòèâíåå îòñóòñòâèÿ àêóïóíêòóðû.
Èññëåäîâàòåëè ïèøóò, ÷òî íàáëþäàåìûé íåçíà÷èòåëüíûé áîëåóòîëÿþùèé ýôôåêò èãëîóêàëûâàíèÿ ñòàâèò ïîä ñîìíåíèå åãî êëèíè÷åñêóþ óìåñòíîñòü.  òî æå âðåìÿ, îíè íå èñêëþ÷àþò, ÷òî ïîäîáíûå ðåçóëüòàòû íåäîñòàòî÷íî èëëþñòðèðóþò ðåàëüíóþ êàðòèíó, òàê êàê áîëü – ñóáúåêòèâíîå îùóùåíèå, òÿæåëî ïîääàþùååñÿ òî÷íîé îöåíêå.


Ýòî íîâîñòè ñ ñàéòà îáùåñòâà ïî äîêàçàòåëüíîé ìåäèöèíå, ãäå åæäíåâíî ïîÿâëÿþòñÿ âåñüìà è âåñüìà ëþáîïûòíûå ñòàòüè
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Ã.À. Ìåëüíè÷åíêî
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #9  
Ñòàðûé 04.02.2009, 15:37
Guseinov Guseinov âíå ôîðóìà
ÂÐÀ×
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 28.02.2008
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,182
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 2
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 961 ðàç(à) çà 928 ñîîáùåíèé
Guseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò Melnichenko Ïîñìîòðåòü ñîîáùåíèå
×åëîâå÷åñâòî óïîðíî ïûòàåòñÿ íàéòè ìåñòî èãëîòåðàïèè ( à ñïîíñîðû äàþò äåíüãè íà èññëåäâîàíèÿ)
Òåì íå ìåíåå :
Àïäåéò èññëåäîâàíèé Êîõðýéí ïî àêóïóíêòóðå ïðè ãîëîâíîé áîëè äîáàâèë îïòèìèçìà ëþáèòåëÿì èãîëîê.
Acupuncture for tension-type headache
Background
Acupuncture is often used for tension-type headache prophylaxis but its effectiveness is still controversial. This review (along with a companion review on 'Acupuncture for migraine prophylaxis') represents an updated version of a Cochrane review originally published in Issue 1, 2001, of The Cochrane Library.
Main results
….. Small but statistically significant benefits of acupuncture over sham were found for response as well as for several other outcomes. Three of the four trials comparing acupuncture with physiotherapy, massage or relaxation had important methodological or reporting shortcomings. Their findings are difficult to interpret, but collectively suggest slightly better results for some outcomes in the control groups.
Authors' conclusions
In the previous version of this review, evidence in support of acupuncture for tension-type headache was considered insufficient. Now, with six additional trials, the authors conclude that acupuncture could be a valuable non-pharmacological tool in patients with frequent episodic or chronic tension-type headaches.
Plain language summary
…. In conclusion, the available evidence suggests that acupuncture could be a valuable option for patients suffering from frequent tension-type headache.

Acupuncture for migraine prophylaxis
Background
Acupuncture is often used for migraine prophylaxis but its effectiveness is still controversial. This review (along with a companion review on 'Acupuncture for tension-type headache') represents an updated version of a Cochrane review originally published in Issue 1, 2001, of The Cochrane Library.
Authors' conclusions
… Available studies suggest that acupuncture is at least as effective as, or possibly more effective than, prophylactic drug treatment, and has fewer adverse effects. Acupuncture should be considered a treatment option for patients willing to undergo this treatment.
Plain language summary
We reviewed 22 trials which investigated whether acupuncture is effective in the prophylaxis of migraine. Six trials investigating whether adding acupuncture to basic care (which usually involves only treating acute headaches) found that those patients who received acupuncture had fewer headaches. Fourteen trials compared true acupuncture with inadequate or fake acupuncture interventions in which needles were either inserted at incorrect points or did not penetrate the skin. In these trials both groups had fewer headaches than before treatment, but there was no difference between the effects of the two treatments. In the four trials in which acupuncture was compared to a proven prophylactic drug treatment, patients receiving acupuncture tended to report more improvement and fewer side effects. Collectively, the studies suggest that migraine
patients benefit from acupuncture, although the correct placement of needles seems to be less relevant than is usually thought by acupuncturists.
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Êîãäà çíàåøü ïî÷åìó íåëüçÿ, òî óæå ìîæíî (ñ)
Ñ óâàæåíèåì, Ãóñåéíîâ Òèìóð Þñóôîâè÷
Ñàéò dr-timur.ru
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #10  
Ñòàðûé 06.02.2009, 16:54
Àâàòàð äëÿ FRSM
 FRSM  FRSM âíå ôîðóìà
ÂÐÀ×
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 12.06.2007
Ãîðîä: Airstrip One
Ñîîáùåíèé: 4,766
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 697 ðàç(à) çà 672 ñîîáùåíèé
FRSM ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåFRSM ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåFRSM ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåFRSM ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåFRSM ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåFRSM ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåFRSM ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåFRSM ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåFRSM ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåFRSM ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåFRSM ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
À âîò ñåãîäíÿøíèé BMJ:

[Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]

[Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]

Acupuncture treatment for pain: systematic review of randomised clinical trials with acupuncture, placebo acupuncture, and no acupuncture groups

Objectives To study the analgesic effect of acupuncture and placebo acupuncture and to explore whether the type of the placebo acupuncture is associated with the estimated effect of acupuncture.
Design Systematic review and meta-analysis of three armed randomised clinical trials.

Data sources Cochrane Library, Medline, Embase, Biological Abstracts, and PsycLIT.

Data synthesis Thirteen trials (3025 patients) involving a variety of pain conditions were eligible. The allocation of patients was adequately concealed in eight trials. The clinicians managing the acupuncture and placebo acupuncture treatments were not blinded in any of the trials. One clearly outlying trial (70 patients) was excluded. A small difference was found between acupuncture and placebo acupuncture: standardised mean difference –0.17 (95% confidence interval –0.26 to –0.08), corresponding to 4 mm (2 mm to 6 mm) on a 100 mm visual analogue scale. No statistically significant heterogeneity was present (P=0.10, I2=36%). A moderate difference was found between placebo acupuncture and no acupuncture: standardised mean difference –0.42 (–0.60 to –0.23). However, considerable heterogeneity (P<0.001, I2=66%) was also found, as large trials reported both small and large effects of placebo. No association was detected between the type of placebo acupuncture and the effect of acupuncture (P=0.60).

Conclusions A small analgesic effect of acupuncture was found, which seems to lack clinical relevance and cannot be clearly distinguished from bias. Whether needling at acupuncture points, or at any site, reduces pain independently of the psychological impact of the treatment ritual is unclear.

[Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]

[Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #11  
Ñòàðûé 20.04.2009, 18:09
Covrov Covrov âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 10.04.2009
Ñîîáùåíèé: 62
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 3
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 7 ðàç(à) çà 6 ñîîáùåíèé
Covrov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò îòâðàòèòåëüíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Ñòðàííîå åäèíîäóøåå â îòðèöàíèè àêóïóíêòóðû. ß âèäåë ìíîãî ïàöèåíòîâ, êîòîðûì ÈÐÒ ïîìîãëà.
[Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ]
 Èçðàèëå åå øèðîêî èñïîëüçóþò.
È âîîáùå, íåñêîëüêî ìèëëèàðäîâ ëþäåé íà Çåìëå äàâíî ëå÷àòñÿ àþðâåäîé è àêóïóêòóðîé. È ÷óâñòâóþò ñåáÿ, íàäî çàìåòèòü, ãîðàçäî ëó÷øå, ÷åì òå, êîòîðûå ëå÷àòñÿ õèì÷åñêèìè ïðåïàðàòàìè "ñ äîêàçàííîé ýôôåêòèâíîñòüþ".
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #12  
Ñòàðûé 20.04.2009, 18:36
Àâàòàð äëÿ Melnichenko
Melnichenko Melnichenko âíå ôîðóìà
ÂÐÀ×
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 26.07.2001
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 117,195
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 26
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 33,590 ðàç(à) çà 32,664 ñîîáùåíèé
Melnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåMelnichenko ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Ñòðàííîå íåïîíèìàíèå ñóòè ïðî÷èòàííîãî - ðå÷ü íå èäåò îá îõîòíè÷üèõ ðàññêàçàõ - "ÿ âèäåë ìíîãèõ, êîìó ïîìîãëà" è ïð.

ß òîæå çíàêîìà ñ áàáóøêîé ìîåãî ñîñåäà ïî ëåñòíè÷íîé êëåòêå, ïîäðóãà êîòîðîãî ñëûøàëà,êàê åå íà÷àëüíèöà ïî òåëåôîíó ãîâîðèëà , ÷òî ñåñòðå åå ïðèÿòåëÿ ÷òî-òî óæàñòü êàê ïîìîãàåò - òî ëè èãîëêè , òî ëè ìî÷à ñóïîðîñòîãî ÿãíåíêà , è îáåùëà óçíàòü ..

Ïðàâî ñëîâî , êîãäà ïîäîáíîãî ðîäà ëîãèêà ðàäóåò ñëóõ èç óñò äàìû ïîñòáàëüçàêîâñêîãî âîçðàñòà, ýòî ïîíÿòíî ..Íî äîêòîð ìóæåñêà ïîëà âñå- òàêè âðîäå êàê ïðîñâåùåííûì ñêåïòèöèçìîì íå äîëæåí áûòü îáäåëåí.. Èëè ïðàâäà âåðèòå âñåìó?


Ðå÷ü èäåò î äðóãîì- êàê áûëî äîêàçàíî è áûëî ëè äîêàçàíî âîîáùå , ÷òî âìåøàòåëüñòâî Õ ïîìîãàåò ïðè ñèòóàöèè Ó - òîëüêî è âñåãî
È òåêñòû ïðèëàãàþòñÿ..
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Ã.À. Ìåëüíè÷åíêî
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #13  
Ñòàðûé 20.04.2009, 19:19
Guseinov Guseinov âíå ôîðóìà
ÂÐÀ×
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 28.02.2008
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,182
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 2
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 961 ðàç(à) çà 928 ñîîáùåíèé
Guseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò Covrov Ïîñìîòðåòü ñîîáùåíèå
Ñòðàííîå åäèíîäóøåå â îòðèöàíèè àêóïóíêòóðû..
Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò Melnichenko Ïîñìîòðåòü ñîîáùåíèå
Ñòðàííîå íåïîíèìàíèå ñóòè ïðî÷èòàííîãî ..
Óâàæàåìûé Covrov. Íó äåéñòâèòåëüíî, â÷èòàéòåñü. Ïðîñòî ñïåöèàëèñòû ñ äîëåé çäîðîâîãî ñêåïñèñà îáìåíèâàþòñÿ íîâîé, çàñëóæèâàþùåãî âíèìàíèÿ, èíôîðìàöèåé ê ðàçìûøëåíèþ. Ýòî çäîðîâûé ïóòü ÅÂÌ. Ó÷àñòâóéòå!
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Êîãäà çíàåøü ïî÷åìó íåëüçÿ, òî óæå ìîæíî (ñ)
Ñ óâàæåíèåì, Ãóñåéíîâ Òèìóð Þñóôîâè÷
Ñàéò dr-timur.ru
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #14  
Ñòàðûé 20.04.2009, 19:20
Covrov Covrov âíå ôîðóìà Ïîë ìóæñêîé
çàáàíåí
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 10.04.2009
Ñîîáùåíèé: 62
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 3
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 7 ðàç(à) çà 6 ñîîáùåíèé
Covrov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò îòâðàòèòåëüíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Öèòàòà:
Èëè ïðàâäà âåðèòå âñåìó?
ß íå âåðþ. ß çíàþ.
Ïîëòîðà äåñÿòêà ëåò òîìó íàçàä ñïåöèàëèñò èç Êîðåè ñïàñ ìîþ æåíó. Åå ïîïðîñòó âûïèñàëè èç ñòàöèîíàðà äîìîé óìèðàòü. È åñëè áû íå àêóïóêòóðà, åå óæå áû íå áûëî.
Áîëüøå äåñÿòè ëåò ñàì çàíèìàþñü Ñó-Äæîê. Ðåçóëüòàìè ìîåé ðàáîòû â ýòîé îáëàñòè ìîè ïàöèåíòû äîâîëüíû. È ýòî ìíå âàæíåå ëþáîãî îôèöèàëüíîãî äîêàçàòåëüñòâà.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #15  
Ñòàðûé 20.04.2009, 19:29
Guseinov Guseinov âíå ôîðóìà
ÂÐÀ×
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 28.02.2008
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 3,182
Ñêàçàë(à) ñïàñèáî: 2
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 961 ðàç(à) çà 928 ñîîáùåíèé
Guseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGuseinov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Öèòàòà:
Ñîîáùåíèå îò Covrov Ïîñìîòðåòü ñîîáùåíèå
ß íå âåðþ. ß çíàþ.
Êðåïêî ñêàçàíî. Íî áåçäîêàçàòåëüíî. Ñ îïûòîì ýòî ïðîõîäèò
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Êîãäà çíàåøü ïî÷åìó íåëüçÿ, òî óæå ìîæíî (ñ)
Ñ óâàæåíèåì, Ãóñåéíîâ Òèìóð Þñóôîâè÷
Ñàéò dr-timur.ru
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
Îòâåò


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