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Âåðíóòüñÿ   Äèñêóññèîííûé Êëóá Ðóññêîãî Ìåäèöèíñêîãî Ñåðâåðà > Ôîðóìû âðà÷åáíûõ êîíñóëüòàöèé > Íåâðîëîãèÿ è íåéðîõèðóðãèÿ

Íåâðîëîãèÿ è íåéðîõèðóðãèÿ Ôîðóìû: Ôîðóì äëÿ îáùåíèÿ âðà÷åé íåâðîëîãîâ è íåéðîõèðóðãîâ, Ìàíóàëüíàÿ òåðàïèÿ

Îòâåò
 
Îïöèè òåìû Ïîèñê â ýòîé òåìå Îïöèè ïðîñìîòðà
  #1  
Ñòàðûé 29.06.2002, 10:38
colonist colonist âíå ôîðóìà
Ñåðôåð
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 29.06.2002
Ãîðîä: Moscow
Ñîîáùåíèé: 2
colonist *
Question ˸ãêàÿ ×ÌÒ

ß íå ìåäèê. 35 ëåò. Óïàë ñ òðåõìåòðîâîé âûñîòû íàâçíè÷. Äèàãíîç - ñîòðÿñåíèå ìîçãà ëåãêîé ñòåïåíè + ðàçëè÷íûå óøèáû.  îäíîé è òîé æå êëèíèêå äâà íåâðîïîòîëîãà íàçíà÷èëè ðàçëè÷íûå ëå÷åíèÿ (ïîìèìî, åñòåñòâåííî, îáåçáîëåâàþùåãî è ñíîòâîðíîãî) : 1é- öèíàðèçèí+ ïèðàöåòàì, à 2é- ãëèöèí (ïðè÷åì êàòåãîðè÷åñêè ïðîòèâ öèíàðèçèíà è ïèðàöåòàìà). Ìíå ÷åðåç íåäåëþ ïðåäñòîèò ïîåçäêà ñàìîëåòîì. Êàêîå ëå÷åíèå, ïî Âàøåìó ìíåíèþ ïðàâèëüíîå èëè ïðåäëîæåòå äðóãîå. Çàðàíåå áëàãîäàðåí. Êîíñòàíòèí.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #2  
Ñòàðûé 30.06.2002, 21:03
kuszel kuszel âíå ôîðóìà
Çàñëóæåííûé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 31.07.2001
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 626
kuszel ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåkuszel ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåkuszel ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåkuszel ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåkuszel ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Exclamation ÑÎÒÐßÑÅÍÈÅ ÌÎÇÃÀ ÍÅ ËÅ×ÈÒÑß

Ïîýòîìó ÿ ïðåäëàãàþ Âàì 3-é òèï ëå÷åíèÿ - åñëè Âàñ íè÷åãî íå áåñïîêîèò êðîìå ãîëîâíûõ áîëåé, òî êðîìå àíàëüãåòèêîâ íè÷åãî íå ïðèíèìàéòå. Åñëè ÷òî-òî áåñïîêîèò, òî ñîîáùèòå ïîäðîáíåå ïðîáëåìû.

Ïîëåò íà ñàìîëåòå ÷åðåç íåäåëþ ïîñëå ëåãêîé ×ÌÒ ìîæåò óñóãóáèòü Âàøè æàëîáû â ñâÿçè ñ "ðàññòðîåííîñòüþ" èç çà òðàâìû ñèñòåì àóòîðåãóëÿöèè âíóòðè÷åðåïíîãî äàâëåíèÿ. ×òî-ëèáî ñäåëàòü â ýòîì íàïðàâëåíèè, êðîìå êàê îòêàçàòüñÿ îò ïîëåòà íåâîçìîæíî.

Ñ óâàæåíèåì,
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #3  
Ñòàðûé 02.07.2002, 00:56
colonist colonist âíå ôîðóìà
Ñåðôåð
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 29.06.2002
Ãîðîä: Moscow
Ñîîáùåíèé: 2
colonist *
Question Ïðîáëåìà âñòàëà.

Ñïàñèáî çà ñîâåò. Íî ìíå óæå íå äî ïîë¸òîâ.
Ïðîáëåìà òàêàÿ - ïîêà 3 äíÿ êîëîë ñèáàçîí+ ïðèåì òàáë ñíîòâîðíûå ôåíîáàðáåòàë è öèíàðèçèí - ñïàë è âûçäîðàâëèâàë. Êàê òîëüêî ïðåêðàòèë óêîëû - íå ñïëþ. Äà íå ïðîñòî íå ñïëþ - îò òàáëåòîê ñïàòü õî÷åòñÿ ïîñòîÿííî, íî êàê òîëüêî âûêëþ÷àþñü, ñðàçó ñåðäöå äàåò ñèëüíûé óäàð è ðóêè/íîãè ðåçêóþ ñóäðîãó, à ïîñêîëüêó ñíîòâîðíûå òàáëåòêè -ñèëüíîäåéñòâóþùèå - ïðîèñõîäèëî ýòî "çàñûïàíèå" ðàç äåñÿòü çà ñóòêè è ñòàëî áîëåòü ñåðäöå. Ïîêà òàáëåòêè ñàì ñåáå îòìåíèë , ñúåçäèë ê äîêòîðó , âçÿë åù¸ óêîëîâ(àìïóë ñèáàçîí+àíàëüãèí+íîøïà).  ðåçóëüòàòå óæå òðåòüè ñóòêè âîîáùå íå ñïëþ. Âðà÷ ïîêà ñîâåòóåò óâåëè÷èòü äîçû ñíîòâîðíîãî. ×åñòíî ãîâîðÿ íàñòðîåíèå â down. Äîçû êîíå÷íî ìîæíî óâåëè÷èâàòü, íî òàê ÿ çàçîìáèðóñü äî ÷åðòèêîâ.
Åñëè ïîìîæåòå ñîâåòîì áóäó î÷åíü áëàãîäàðåí.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #4  
Ñòàðûé 02.07.2002, 01:49
Àâàòàð äëÿ Gilarov
Gilarov Gilarov âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Âðà÷-ó÷àñòíèê ôîðóìà
      
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 26.07.2001
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 7,196
Ïîáëàãîäàðèëè 713 ðàç(à) çà 691 ñîîáùåíèé
Gilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåGilarov ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
ß, êîíå÷íî, ñïåöèàëèñò íåâåëèêèé, íî âñå æå èíòåðåñíî, çà÷åì ïðè ×ÌÒ ñî÷åòàíèå ñèáàçîíà ñ ôåíîáàðáèòàëîì...
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #5  
Ñòàðûé 02.07.2002, 02:53
Àâàòàð äëÿ Libman-Saks
Libman-Saks Libman-Saks âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Çàñëóæåííûé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 02.10.2001
Ãîðîä: Ëèñè÷àíñêa
Ñîîáùåíèé: 504
Libman-Saks ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò îòëè÷íóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Íå çíàþ çà÷åì Ñèáàçîí. Íî áàðáèòóðàòû ,( äèàçåïàì), òå ÷òî ïîêîðî÷å ïðèìåíÿþò. Òðè ãîäà íàçàä áûëà ñòàòüÿ îáîáùàþùàÿ TBI ( Traumatic Brain Injury), èëè ïî íàøåìó ñîòðÿñåíèÿ ìîçãà. È ðåêîìåíäîâàëîñü ïðèìåíåíèå äèàçåïàìà â òå÷åíèå 10 äíåé èëè íåäåëè. Äîñòîâåðíî ïîíèæàåò ó ýòîãî êîíòèíãåíòà ýïèçîäû ïîñò-òðàâìâòè÷åñêèõ ñóäîðîã, ñâÿçàííûõ ñ TBI â ýòîò ïåðèîä. Åñëè ñóäîðîã íå áûëî â òå÷åíèå 10 äíåé ïîñëå ×ÌÒ, òî ëå÷åíèå íå ðåêîìåíäîâàíî.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #6  
Ñòàðûé 02.07.2002, 08:33
kuszel kuszel âíå ôîðóìà
Çàñëóæåííûé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 31.07.2001
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 626
kuszel ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåkuszel ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåkuszel ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåkuszel ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåkuszel ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Lightbulb Ïîçâîëüòå ïðîëèòü íåêîòîðûé ñâåò íà ïðîáëåìó ïðîôèëàêòèêè ýïè

Óâàæàåìûå êîëëåãè,

1) Ä-ð Ãèëÿðîâ ñïðàâåäëèâî îòìåòèë áåññìûñëåííîñòü íàçíà÷åíèé (íó åùå îäèí ôåíîáàðáèòàë ìîæíî áûëî áû îáúÿñíèòü "ñîâåòñêîé çàêàëêîé" äîêòîðà, íî ñ ñèáàçîíîì - ýòî óæå ðàçâðàò....)

2) ß íå ñîâñåì ñîãëàñåí ñ Ä-ðîì Ë-Ñ ïî ïîâîäó åãî êîììåíòàðèÿ. Ñíà÷àëà ïîçâîëüòå íåñîãëàñèòüñÿ ïî ôîðìå:
- äåëî â òîì, ÷òî â àíãëîÿçû÷íîé ëèòåðàòóðå îáû÷íî ïîä òåðìèíîì TBI ïîäðàçóìåâàåòñÿ òÿæåëàÿ ×ÌÒ, íî íèêàêè íå ñîòðÿñ (âî âñÿêîì ñëó÷àå, ÿ íèðàçó íå âñòðå÷àë ñòàòåé ïðî ñîòðÿñ, ãäå îí áû íàçûâàëñÿ TBI). Ñîòðÿñ ïî àãëèöêè ÷àùå âñåãî íàçûâàþò minor head injury

òåïåðü ïî ñîäåðæàíèþ:

- Âû ïèñàëè
Öèòàòà:
Íå çíàþ çà÷åì Ñèáàçîí. Íî áàðáèòóðàòû ,( äèàçåïàì), òå ÷òî ïîêîðî÷å ïðèìåíÿþò
ñèáàçîí è äèàçåïàì ýòî ÷åñòíî ãîâîðÿ îäíî è òîæå, êðîìå òîãî, îíè âñå òàêè áåíçîäèàçåïèíû, à íå áàðáèòóðàòû (õîòÿ ñóòè ïðîáëåìû ýòî íå ìåíÿåò, ñì.íèæå )

- ïðè ñîòðÿñå ÍÅ ÍÀÇÍÀ×ÀÞÒ ÏÐÎÒÈÂÎÑÓÄÎÐÎÆÍÛÅ ÏÐÅÏÀÐÀÒÛ (ýòî áåññìûñëåííî, ò.ê. risk/benefit ratio ñòðåìèòñÿ ê áåñêîíå÷íîñòè, ÷òî íàãëÿäî ïðîäåìîíñòðèðîâàë ïðèìåð íàøåãî ïàöèåíòà)
- äàæå ïðè TBI èõ íàçíà÷åíèå îñòàåòñÿ íà "ïðàâîñîçíàíèè äîêòîðà", ïîòîìó ÷òî íåò íèîäíîãî èññëåäîâàíèÿ, ïîêàçàâøåãî áû íà âëèÿíèå ýòèõ íàçíà÷åíèé íà êëèíè÷åñêèé "âûõîä". ×òîáû íå áûòü ãîëîñëîâíûì, ÿ íèæå ïðèâîæó äâå öèòàòû (îäíà èç Cohrane ïî ýòîé òåìå (2002ã) , äðóãàÿ èç TBI guidelines (2000ã))

Cochrane:
Öèòàòà:
Main results: We identified 10 eligible randomised controlled trials, including 2036 participants, but data was unavailable for four unpublished trials,
representing 631 participants and they were excluded. For the remaining six trials, the pooled relative risk (RR) for early seizure prevention was 0.34 (95%
confidence interval 0.21 to 0.54); based on this estimate, for every 100 patients treated, 10 would be kept seizure free in the first week. Seizure control in
the acute phase was not accompanied by a reduction in mortality (RR=1.15 ; 95% confidence interval 0.89 to 1.51), a reduction in death and neurological
disability (RR = 1.49; 95% confidence interval 1.06 to 2.08 for carbamazepine and RR= 0.96; 95% confidence interval 0.72 to 1.26 for phenytoin) or a
reduction in late seizures (pooled RR =1.28; 95% confidence interval 0.90 to 1.81). The pooled relative risk for skin rashes was 1.57 (95% confidence
interval 0.57 to 39.88).
Reviewers' conclusions: Prophylactic anti-epileptics are effective in reducing early seizures, but there is no evidence that treatment with prophylactic
anti-epileptics reduces the occurrence of late seizures, or has any effect on death and neurological disability. Insufficient evidence is available to establish
the net benefit of prophylactic treatment at any time after injury
.
TBI guidelines:
Öèòàòà:
The Role of Antiseizure Prophylaxis Following Head Injury
I. RECOMMENDATIONS
A. Standards
Prophylactic use of phenytoin, carbamazepine. phenobarbital or valproate, is not recommended for preventing late posttraumatic seizures (PTS).
B. Guidelines
None C. Options
1. It is recommended as a treatment option that anticonvulsants may be used to prevent early posttraumatic seizures in patients at high risk for seizures following head injury. Phenytoin and carbama-zepine have been demonstrated to be effective in preventing early posttraumatic seizures. However, the available evidence does not indicate that prevention of early posttraumatic seizures improves outcome following head injury.
PS - åùå ðàç îáðàùàþ âíèìàíèå, ÷òî âñå ýòî îòíîñèòñÿ ê òÿæåëîé ×ÌÒ, ïðî "ëå÷åíèå" ñîòðÿñîâ íèãäå íå ãîâîðèòñÿ è îíî ñîñòîèò â èñêëþ÷èòåëüíî ñèìïòîìàòè÷åñêîé òåðàïèè.


Äëÿ ÏÀÖÈÅÍÒÀ - ÿ áû øåë ê äîêîòîãðó, êîòîðûé âñå ýòî íàçíà÷èë è ïîïðîñèë "âåðíóòü" âñå êàê áûëî. Ïî âñåé âèäèìîñòè ó Âàñ ýëåìåíòû ôåíîìåíà îòìåíû, êîòîðûé ñëåäóåò ïðîõîäèòü ìÿãêî, ò.å. äîçó ëó÷øå íå óâåëè÷èâàòü, à ïûòàòüñÿ ñíèæàòü ïëàâíî. Íî âñå ýòî ëó÷øå îáñóäèòü ñ äîêòîðîì, êîòîðûé Âàñ ëå÷èò.

Ñ óâàæåíèåì,
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #7  
Ñòàðûé 11.07.2002, 06:08
Àâàòàð äëÿ Libman-Saks
Libman-Saks Libman-Saks âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Çàñëóæåííûé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 02.10.2001
Ãîðîä: Ëèñè÷àíñêa
Ñîîáùåíèé: 504
Libman-Saks ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò îòëè÷íóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Óâ. ä-ð Êóøåëü, ñïàñèáî çà áåíçîäèàçåïèíû è áàðáèòóðàòû

Ïî ïîâîäó TBI, òî åñòü ïîíÿòèå è mild TBI, ïðè÷¸ì äîâîëüíî ÷àñòî ïðèìåíÿþùèéñÿ ó âðà÷åé Ðåàáèëèòàöèîííîé ìåäèöèíû è Rehab. ëèòåðàòóðå. Ñóùåñòâóþò ðàçíîãëàñèÿ ïî ýòîìó ïîâîäó, Âû ïðàâû. Íà ìîé âçãëÿä ïîäîáíûé äèàãíîç ïðàâîìåðåí ïðè íàðóøåíèè êîãíèòèâíûõ ôóíêöèé è ðàçëè÷íûõ ñèìïòîìîâ ÖÍÑ , òàêèõ êàê perception, reasoning è ò.ä. ß äóìàþ, ÷òî åñëè ó ýòîãî ïàöèåíòà çäåëàòü Íåéðî-Ïñèõîëîãè÷åñêèé òåñò, òî ìû îáíàðóæèì îòêëîíåíèÿ. Ïðè÷èíîé íàçíà÷åíèÿ ýòîãî òåñòà, ëîãè÷åñêè ìîãóò ïîñëóæèòü æàëîáû áîëüíîãî. " Íàñòðîåíèå â down , áåññîíèöà, áåñïîêîéñòâî è ò.ä.

×òî êàñàåòñÿ ïðîôèëàêòèêè ñóäîðîã, òî ÿ ìîãó Âàì ïðèâåñòè, ñòàòüè è stady ðàòóþùèå "ÇÀ" ïðîôèëàêòèêó ñóäîðîã. Îïÿòü æå, äåëî âñ¸ â äèçàéíå èññëåäîâàíèÿ, êàêîé îíè èíñòðóìåíò ïðèìåíÿëè äëÿ èçó÷åíèÿ è ïð. ß ëè÷íî ÂÈÄÅË áîëüíûõ ïîñëå mild TBI ïîñòóïàþùèõ ïî ñêîðîé ñ ñóäîðîãàìè, ïîýòîìó îáû÷íî íàçíà÷àþ ïðîôèëàêòèêó ïîêà íå áóäåò îïðåäåëåíî áîëåå ÷¸òêèõ êðèòåðèåâ, êàê ñàìîãî TBI, òàê è êîíòèíãåíòà íå ïîïàäàþùåãî ïîä ïðîôèëàêòèêó.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #8  
Ñòàðûé 27.07.2002, 09:20
Àâàòàð äëÿ Libman-Saks
Libman-Saks Libman-Saks âíå ôîðóìà ÂÐÀ×
Çàñëóæåííûé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 02.10.2001
Ãîðîä: Ëèñè÷àíñêa
Ñîîáùåíèé: 504
Libman-Saks ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò îòëè÷íóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
Óâ. ä-ð Êóøåëü. Òóò ñëó÷àé íåîáû÷íûé ïîäâåðíóëñÿ, íà äíÿõ ïðåäñòàâëþ.
Îòâåòèòü ñ öèòèðîâàíèåì
  #9  
Ñòàðûé 29.07.2002, 07:56
kuszel kuszel âíå ôîðóìà
Çàñëóæåííûé ó÷àñòíèê
 
Ðåãèñòðàöèÿ: 31.07.2001
Ãîðîä: Ìîñêâà
Ñîîáùåíèé: 626
kuszel ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåkuszel ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåkuszel ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåkuszel ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìåkuszel ýòîò ó÷àñòíèê èìååò ïðåâîñõîäíóþ ðåïóòàöèþ íà ôîðóìå
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