#1
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Âðà÷åáíàÿ äèñêóññèÿ î Ôåððîâèðå.
Öèòàòà:
Ìû ïîëàãàëè, ÷òî àâèäíîñòü àíòèòåë, êîòîðûå áóäóò ñèíòåçèðîâàòü ïëàçìàòè÷åñêèå êëåòêè áóäåò íèçêîé èáî ìîòèâ CpG -"íè÷åé" (ëîñîñÿ) È ÷òî âîçüì¸ì ìû íå àâèäíîñòüþ , à ÷èñëîì (íàì âóëüãàëüðíî àíòèòåëà íóæíû äëÿ îïñîíèçàöèè) è ïîñëåäóþùåãî ôàãîöèòîçà, íî îêàçàëîñü, ÷òî àâèäíîñòü íå òàêàÿ óæ íèçêàÿ. Àíòèòåë õâàòàåò, îïñîíèçàöèÿ âèðóñíûõ ÷àñòèö ïðèëè÷íàÿ, è ê òîìó æå ñòèìóëèðîâàííûå òàêèì îáðàçîì ìàêðîôàãè íå òîëüêî ôàãîöèòèðóþò, íî è êàê ïîëîæåíî, ñèíòåçèðóþò INF àëüôà è áåòòà. À ïîñêîëüêó ðåçèäåíòíûé ìàêðîôàã æèâ¸ò 1-2-3 ìåñÿöà, òî ýôôåêò ïîëó÷àåòñÿ íåïëîõîé. |
#2
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#3
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Ïîâåðüòå, ïðî Toll-Like ðåöåïòîðû ÿ çíàþ íå ïî íàñëûøêå. òàêæå, ê ñîæàëåíèþ, çíàþ, êàê ó íàñ â ñòðàíå "äåëàþòñÿ" èññëåäîâàíèÿ ïî èììóíîëîãèè, óâû, îíè íè÷åãî îáùåãî ñ íàóêîé íå èìåþò.
Æäó ñ íåòåðïåíèåì äîñòîéíîå èññëåäîâàíèå. |
#4
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Ïîêà ìû ñäåëàëè òîëüêî ýòî.
[Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ] [Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ] Ó ìåíÿ íåò îñíîâàíèé íå âåðèòü ñâîåé ëàáîðàòîðèè, êîòîðàÿ íå çíàÿ íè âðà÷à, íè ïàöèåíòà, âûäà¸ò ðåçóëüòàòû, óêàçûâàþùèå íà ïîâûøåíèå àâèäíîñòè àíòèòåë ê âèðóñó ïîä âëèÿíèåì ôåððîâèðà. Äëÿ áîëüíè÷íîé ëàáîðàòîðèè ýòî âñåãî ëèøü ïðîáèðêà ñ ÷üåé-òî êðîâüþ. Ëþäè òàì, ïðî ôåððîâèð íèêîãäà íå ñëûøàëè. È îí èõ íå èíòåðåñóåò. Îíè àâèäíîñòü èçìåðÿþò. Ðàñò¸ò àâèäíîñòü - îíè ïèøóò, ÷òî îíà ñòàëà ðàâíà (óñëîâíî) Õ+1 Åä\ìë. À íåäåëþ íàçàä îíà áûëà Õ-5 Åä\ìë. È ÷òî? ß òåïåðü äîëæåí èãíîðèðîâàòü ýòîò ôàêò, è æäàòü ïîêà Éîðã Âîëìåð íå óáåäèò Pfaizer (îíè ñåé÷àñ ïîäîøëè êî 2-3 ôàçå èñïûòàíèé àãîíèñòà TLR 9) èëè Idera Pharmaceutical, Inc (IDRA) (îíè íà 4 ôàçå èñïûòàíèé àãîíèñòà TLR 9 äëÿ ëå÷åíèÿ ÁÀ) êóïèòü ñ ïîòðîõàìè ïðîèçâîäèòåëÿ ôåððîâèðà, ðàçäàòü ïî Ìèðó 500-1 ìëðä $ íà GCP ? Äà ùàñ! Ìû íàøëè ëèãàíä äëÿ TLR 9 â ïðåïàðàòå. ß âèæó êëèíè÷åñêèé ýôôåêò, ëàáà ïîäòâåðæäàåò åãî îáúåêòèâíûìè ïîêàçàòåëÿìè. Ïî÷åìó ýòî ÿ äîëæåí îòêàçûâàòüñÿ îò õîðîøåãî êëèíè÷åñêîãî ýôôåêòà â îæèäàíèè ....èçâèíÿþñü ïîíòîâ ? |
#5
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Äèñêóññèÿ âûäåëåíà èç òåìû ïàöèåíòà.
Ìîäåðàòîð. |
#6
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Íèêîãî íå èíòåðåñóåò äåëüòà àâèäíîñòè ÷åãî-ëèáî, âîïðîñ ðåáðîì - åñòü èëè íåò êëèíè÷åñêèé îòâåò: êîëè÷åñòâî ïîïðàâèâøèõñÿ/âûçäîðîâåâøèõ ïî êëèíè÷åñêè çíà÷èìûì òî÷êàì ïî ñðàâíåíèþ ñ ïëàöåáî/îáùåïðèíÿòûì ëå÷åíèåì???
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Èñêðåííå, Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷. |
#7
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Ëèäîêàèí òîæå ïðåêðàñíî ïðîôèëàêòèðîâàë àðèòìèè ïðè èíôàðêòå ìèîêàîðäà - ïî ÝÊà âñå áûëî â àæóðå... Ýòî ê âîïðîñó îá îöåíêå ñóððîãàòíûõ òî÷åê è "ìû æå âèäèì ýôôåêò!"
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×òîáû ïîñòàâèòü äèàãíîç íåïðàâèëüíî, íàäî èìåòü îñîáûé òàëàíò è ïðåìíîãî ïîñòàðàòüñÿ: ñäåëàòü ÌÐÒ è ÊÒ âñåõ ëþáîïûòíûõ ìåñò áîëüíîãî, ðåíòãåíîâñêèå ñíèìêè îò ãîëîâû äî ïÿò, àíàëèçû âñåõ áèîæèäêîñòåé, ïðèãëàñèòü ïÿòîê-äðóãîé êîíñóëüòàíòîâ… Ñàì ÷åðò ïîòîì âî âñåì ýòîì íå ðàçáåðåòñÿ! Ï. Ðóäè÷ |
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#8
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×òî åñòü ôåððîâèð - ýòî íóêëåèíàò íàòðèÿ Derinat â ñìåñè ñ òðåõâàëåíòíûì æåëåçîì (íå óäàåòñÿ ïðîäàòü êàæäûé ïî îòäåëüíîñòè, íóæíî çàìóòèòü ñìåñü è âïàðèâàòü äîâåð÷èâûì ãðàæäàíàì - íàïîìèíàåò ôàðì. ïðîðûâ íà áåë. ðûíêå - áåçîïàñíûé àñïèðèí, íå âûçûâàþùèé ÿçâåííîé áîëåçíè, áëàãîäàðÿ ìåñòíûì óìåëüöàì - ïðè ðàññìîòðåíèè îêàçàëñÿ îáû÷íîé àöåòèëñàëèöèëîâîé êèñëîòîé ñïðåññîâàííîé ñ àêòèâèðîâàííûì óãëåì)
Ïåðâîå óïîìèíàíèå â ïàáìåäå (î ïðåïàðàòå ïðîòèâ ÂÈ× ïî÷åìó-òî íàïèñàëè â êëèí. ëàá æóðíàëå): Am Clin Lab. 2001 Oct-Nov;20(9):36-8. Ferrovir: a new antiviral drug for the treatment of HIV. Nossik D, Kaplina E, Nossik N, Sato S, Fomin Y, Voronin E. âòîðîå è ïîñëåäíåå: ãîä ñïóñòÿ - êàêîå åùå òåñòèðîâàíèå àêòèâíîñòè ïðîòèâ âèðóñîâ, êîãäà 7-9 ìåñ. íàçàä óæå èì óæå ñîáèðàëèñü ëå÷èòü ÂÈ×??? Vopr Virusol. 2002 May-Jun;47(3):21-3. [Activity of "Ferrovir" preparation towards RNA and DNA viruses]. [Article in Russian] Nosik DN, Nosik NN, Kaplina EN, Kalnina LB, Kiseleva IA, Kondrashina NG, Sato Sh, L'vov DK. Ferrovir (trivalent iron in complex with native sturgeon milt DNA) is nontoxic, its 50% inhibiting concentration (IC50) is at least 4000 micrograms/ml, 90% effective concentration (EC90) towards HIV-1 is 800 micrograms/ml. These effects do not depend on the cell culture or individual biological characteristics and subtypes of 7 strains of HIV-1 used in our study. The chemotherapeutic index of the drug is more than 20. Combined therapy with ferrovir and retrovir had an additive antiviral effect. Ferrovir reduced the titer of human CMV in fibroblast culture by 1-2 Ig TCD50. Ferrovir protected mice after intracerebral inoculation with lethal herpes simplex virus (type 1) (survival 33.7%, protection 27.1%, which is close to the reference group treated with zovirax). These facts evidence antiviral activity of ferrovir towards RNA and DNA viruses and prompt further study of this drug with the aim of its clinical application.
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Èñêðåííå, Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷. |
#9
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Ñîâåðøåííî íàïðàñíî.
1. Ñèíòåçèðóåìûå ïëàçìàòè÷åñêèìè êëåòêàìè àíòèòåëà ê âèðóñó ñ âûñîêîé àâèäíîñòüþ, ëó÷øå , ÷åì ñ íèçêîé. 2. Äà, â ñëó÷àå ãåðïåñà åñòü âûðàæåííûé êëèíè÷åñêèé ýôôåêò. 3. Äà, íàèáîëüøèé ïåðèîä ðåìèññèè áûë îêîëî ãîäà. Ãîä ñ íåáîëüøèì. |
#10
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Öèòàòà:
Âî-âòîðûõ, ìû èìååì äåëî ñ âèðóñíîé èíôåêöèåé, êîòîðàÿ ìåøàåò ïàöèåíòó æèòü (èíîãäà â ïðÿìîì ñìûñëå ñëîâà). È íà àãîíèñòå TLR 9 ó ïàöèåíòà âîçíèêàåò äëèòåëüíàÿ ðåìèññèÿ. Â-òðåòüèõ, íå ñîáèðàþñü ÿ îòêàçûâàòüñÿ îò ãðàôû "Îáúåêòèâíî" â ñâîèõ äíåâíèêàõ â èñòîðèè á-íè. |
#11
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Öèòàòà:
ß äóìàþ, ÷òî æåëåçî - ýòî ÷èñòî òåõíîëîãè÷åñêàÿ ïðèìî÷êà ïðîèçâîäèòåëÿ. Ìîæåò áûòü áàíàëüíî ìîëåêóëà ñòàáèëüíåå, õðàíèòñÿ äîëüøå. Öèòàòà:
Íó òàê ýòî æå áàíäèòñêèå 90-å Òîãäà âñå ãîòîâû áûëè ëå÷èòü ÂÈ× ïî ñõîäíîé öåíå è ÷åì òîëüêî íå ëå÷èëè. Íî â 2001 ãîäó íè î êàêèõ Toll-like receptors ðå÷ü íå øëà. Î íèõ âîîáùå ìàëî êòî ñëûøàë. È ñîîòâåòñòâåííî íèêòî íå çàìîðà÷èâàëñÿ êàê â ïðèíöèïå ìîæåò ðàáîòàòü îáëîìîê ÄÍÊ â 600-700 ïàð íóêëåîòèäîâ. Ñåé÷àñ ïîïûòêà èñïîëüçîâàíèÿ CpG - ÎÄÍ - ýòî îáùåå ìåñòî â èììóíîëîãèè. |
#12
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Èñ÷î îäíà íàõîäêà ñðåäè ñàìèçäàòà (ïðèÿòíî ðàäóåò íîìåð òåçèñîâ The 1st. IAS Conference on HIV Pathogenesis and Treatment, Abstract no. 666):
[Ññûëêè äîñòóïíû òîëüêî çàðåãèñòðèðîâàííûì ïîëüçîâàòåëÿì ] äàòà/ìåñòî ïðîâåäåíèÿ Argentina, on July 8-11, 2001 êëèíè÷åñêèé óñïåõ çàôèêñèðîâàí àæ íà 20 ïàöèåíòàõ: The clinical study enrolled 20 HIV-infected patients with clinical stage 3A, 3B (CDC) and 10 patients in control group. Ten patients were antiretroviral naïve. ñîéäåò çà íà÷àëüíûå ôàçû êëèí. èññëåäîâàíèÿ, èòîãî ïðîøëî 13 ëåò - è õäå ÅÁÌ-ÐÊÈ ñ ïëàöåáîé èëè â ñðàâíåíèè ñ HIV-protease inhibitors, äëÿ ïðèìåðà: In 1985, HIV was identified as the causative agent of acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS)... In 1987 The first reports of highly selective antagonists against the HIV protease were revealed... Phase I trials of saquinavir began in 1989 and it was the first HIV protease inhibitor to be approved for prescription use in 1995. 10 ëåò ïîíàäîáèëîñü îò îòêðûòèÿ âèðóñà äî ïîÿâëåíèÿ ëåêàðñòâà íà ðûíêå, 6 ëåò îò ìîìåíòà íà÷àëà êëèí. èñïûòàíèé, à ôåððîâèð çà 13 ëåò âñå çðèò â êîðåíü - ìåðÿåò àâèäíîñòü è èñïóñêàåò ãèïíîòè÷åñêèå ôëþèäû, íà ôîíå êîòîðûõ ïðàêòèêóþùèå òîëüêî è äåëàþò, ÷òî âèäÿò êëèíè÷åñêèé ýôôåêò. Ïû.Ñû. - Äîêòîð, Âû çà÷åì íàçíà÷àåòå âñåì ïîäðÿä ìåêñèäîë? - Îò íåãî òàê áàëäåþò áîëüíûå è ÿ âèæó âîî÷èþ ñåé êëèíè÷åñêèé ýôôåêò.
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Èñêðåííå, Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷. |
#13
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Öèòàòà:
Åùå ðàç: íè îäíî èç íàóêîîáðàçíûõ îáüÿñíåíèé íå äàåò Âàì ïðàâà êàê âðà÷ó ýêñïåðèìåíòèðîâàòü íà áîëüíûõ ëþäÿõ áåç èõ èíôîðìèðîâàííîãî è òåì áîëåå ôèêñèðîâàòü â èñòîðèÿõ áîëåçíè èëè åùå ãäå. Óâåðåí, ÷òî íåìåöêèå âðà÷è â êîíöëàãåðÿõ åùå è íå òàêèå "ëå÷åáíûå ïðîöåäóðû" ïðîâîäèëè áåç ñîãëàñèÿ çàêëþ÷åííûõ è ôèêñèðîâàëè â ñâîèõ çàïèñíûõ êíèæêàõ, ÷òî êîíå÷íî î÷åíü ïðèãîäèëîñü íà ïðîöåññå â Íþðíáåðãå.
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Èñêðåííå, Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷. |
#14
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Êîëëåãè, îùóùåíèå äåæà-âþ ìíîãî-ìíîãîëåòíåé äàâíîñòè. Ïîäîáíûå âîïðîñû óæå íåîäíîêðàòíî ðàçáèðàëèñü ðàíåå. Íó åñòü ïðåïàðàò. Îí ïîêàçàë íåêóþ àêòèâíîñòü èíâèòðî, ëèáî âëèÿíèå íà ñóððîãàòíûå êîíå÷íûå òî÷êè èíâèâî. Ðàçðåøåí ê ïðèìåíåíèþ âîîáùå. Íå âêëþ÷åí â ñòàíäàðò ëå÷åíèÿ äàííîé íîçîëîãèè â ÷àñòíîñòè (íå âàæíî ÷åé ñòàíäàðò). Òàêèì îáðàçîì, ïðè äàííîé êîíêðåòíîé íîçîëîãèè îí ëèáî íå ïðèìåíÿåòñÿ, ëèáî ïðèìåíÿåòñÿ ñ èíôîðìèðîâàíèåì ïàöèåíòà î åãî ýêñïåðèìåíòàëüíîì õàðàêòåðå â äîïîëíåíèå ê ñòàíäàðòíîé òåðàïèè. Äåëàòü ýòî îáÿçàòåëüíî, èáî â îïðåäåëåííûõ óñëîâèÿõ ñ íåíàâÿç÷èâîé ðåêëàìîé â íåîêðåïøèå âðà÷åáíûå óìû, ïðåïàðàò ìîæåò ñòàòü çàìåíèòåëåì ñòàíäàðòíîé òåðàïèè ñ íåïðåäñêàçóåìûì ðåçóëüòàòîì. ×òî ïëîõî. Ïðè íàêîïëåíèè ýêñïåðèìåíòàëüíûõ äàííûõ ïî òâåðäûì êîíå÷íûì òî÷êàì ïðåïàðàò ìîæåò áûòü âêëþ÷åí â ñòàíäàðò òåðàïèè, óðîâåíü ðåêîìåíäàöèé è ñèëà äîêàçàòåëüñòâ áóäåò íàïðÿìóþ çàâèñåòü îò êà÷åñòâà è ðåçóëüòàòà ïðîâåäåííûõ èññëåäîâàíèé. Î ÷åì ñïîðèì òî?
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#15
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Èñêðåííå, Âàäèì Âàëåðüåâè÷. |